21st Century All-MU Teams

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

We will just disagree. Junior was just the right guy and Buzz knew it as well despite that Badger game and that bar incident that aJunior was part of. As I noted earlier, Lazar and their teammates knew him well. You can disagree, but that's you. Have a good eve.

And none of this makes Junior better than Diener, James, Henry, Acker, Howard, or Rowsey, which is the whole point. None of it made him a top-10 Big East point guard as a senior. As no one is debating that.

Your inability to actually delineate his quality in comparison to his contemporaries is damning, not complimentary. The most compelling argument against Junior is your own inability to justify a higher rating than 7th this century at Marquette or 11th in the Big East as a senior (which could be 13th, Ryan Arcidiacono and Aaron Cosby had comparable seasons to Junior)

Seriously, what is your obsession with arguing the at best 7th best point guard at Marquette this century?

[Nukem2]

Whatever, Junior was a HUGE part of a very successful era of MU BB. Good night,

[Nukem2]

Tarkenton lead the Vikings to six division titles, three Super Bowls and is in the NFL Hall of Fame. Kapp lead them to one Super Bowl, and they dumped him as soon as they could get the Giants to trade Tarkenton back.

Really this is a bad sports statement and should teach you a couple valuable lessons. First, your brain misremembers things. Second, it misremembers them more often when you are bringing up examples from 45 years ago.

Point though is that Kapp also brought the Vikes to the SB though he was less obviously less talented.

[TheSultan]

Point though is that Kapp also brought the Vikes to the SB though he was less obviously less talented.

Well that wasn't your original point. You said "Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings." Which is false.

[Nukem2]

Well that wasn't your original point. You said "Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings." Which is false.

Whatever. I'm not not writing a tome here. In any event, a less talented Kapp did. what Fran could do. Bottom line is getting back to the point here, that Junior was not all that bad. I would like to have a Junior this year! And, yes, feel free to disagree. Good bye.

Ps, my iPad is really screwing up my postin.!

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Whatever, Junior was a HUGE part of a very successful era of MU BB. Good night,

Since you didn't debate the points, I'll take that as an acknowledgement that I'm right. Now that this debate is done, how about 6 topics raised in here that are more interesting than whether Junior is the 7th or 9th best PG of this century?

1) Travis Diener v Dominic James as the top PG. Travis was better offensively but Dom was an excellent defender.

2) Jimmy Butler v Wes Matthews. Both had great senior years and went on to NBA success. Wes had the overall numbers, but Jimmy led a Sweet 16 team.

3) For Phantom, how does Robert Jackson not make the top-3 teams? Despite one year, he was clearly (in my eyes) our best two way center.

4) How surprisingly loaded were we at PF? Lazar, Jae, Henry, Steve, all NBA draft picks and all conference players.

5) Is defense ignored? Many one-dimensional offensive players make these lists while defensive specialists like Otule, Derrick, Burke are ignored (including by me). Do those guys deserve more credit?

6) Best one-year player? Jackson, Carlino, Reinhardt, Lockett?

[CaribouJim]

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.

Not the case - at least not with the consistency of Junior - DW went multiple games as starter where he did not feed Davante or anyone else in the post for that matter. Junior and Davante clicked from day one and Derrick did not. As far as the myth of DW "taking care of the ball" with his low T/O's that happens when you don't put yourself in harm's way...dribble slowly up the court - pass to the left from the top of the key - get the ball back and pass to the right key - nothing ventured, nothing gained. Compare that to Junior, especially in his senior year...that "slow footed" guy was always probing and often putting the pedal to the metal pushing it up court from different angles if he saw an opportunity for at the other end of the court - whether for him or a teammate. Not letting the defense set up and getting a breather - not letting them get comfortable. And that slow footed guy got us the court quick enough to get off a 30 foot jumper to send MU into OT and an eventual win against UCONN. Not to mention that he was reliable at the line. I've got nothing against Derrick - we all know that he is a good kid, but he was not "interchangeable" with Junior - not even close IMO as you've said in the past.

The '11, '12, '13 seasons are more than arguably the best sustained run MU had since Al's era, going to 7-3 in the NCAA's not to mention 37-17 in Big East play including 28-8 the last two years. When it gets down to it yours and Brew's premise is that MU did this in spite of Junior and not because of any of his "tangible" contributions. It may have been only a two year run if not for the following in a Big East tourney game in '11: "Junior Cadougan, a sophomore from Toronto who had 15 points, was the catalyst in the second half, and continued to emerge as a decision maker in the open court. His frequent forays into the heart of the West Virginia defense earned him trips to the free throw line, where he finished 7-for-9 on the night."

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

So Junior had one good game and you crown him? Duane Wilson once scored 30, I don't see him on anyone's list. Or "reliable at the line"? Junior was a bad shooter and that included at the line. 71.4% as a senior and that was his only season over 70%. Every season he played, Junior brought the team FT% down. We went 7-3 in the postseason in spite of him, not because of him.

But again, who really cares if he's the 7th, 8th, 9th, or 10th (easily debatable as Carlino arrived as a PG) best point this century? This topic is boring and has already been discussed ad nauseum.

[TheSultan]

Not the case - at least not with the consistency of Junior - DW went multiple games as starter where he did not feed Davante or anyone else in the post for that matter. Junior and Davante clicked from day one and Derrick did not. As far as the myth of DW "taking care of the ball" with his low T/O's that happens when you don't put yourself in harm's way...dribble slowly up the court - pass to the left from the top of the key - get the ball back and pass to the right key - nothing ventured, nothing gained. Compare that to Junior, especially in his senior year...that "slow footed" guy was always probing and often putting the pedal to the metal pushing it up court from different angles if he saw an opportunity for at the other end of the court - whether for him or a teammate. Not letting the defense set up and getting a breather - not letting them get comfortable. And that slow footed guy got us the court quick enough to get off a 30 foot jumper to send MU into OT and an eventual win against UCONN. Not to mention that he was reliable at the line. I've got nothing against Derrick - we all know that he is a good kid, but he was not "interchangeable" with Junior - not even close IMO as you've said in the past.

The '11, '12, '13 seasons are more than arguably the best sustained run MU had since Al's era, going to 7-3 in the NCAA's not to mention 37-17 in Big East play including 28-8 the last two years. When it gets down to it yours and Brew's premise is that MU did this in spite of Junior and not because of any of his "tangible" contributions. It may have been only a two year run if not for the following in a Big East tourney game in '11: "Junior Cadougan, a sophomore from Toronto who had 15 points, was the catalyst in the second half, and continued to emerge as a decision maker in the open court. His frequent forays into the heart of the West Virginia defense earned him trips to the free throw line, where he finished 7-for-9 on the night."

Yes. Junior had a few good games.

And I'm sorry but I am not basing my statement on A/TO ratio. I am basing it on assist percentages and turnover percentages, which are the number of assists and turnovers that players make over the course of 100 possessions.

Junior's career: 29.3 / 25.7 Derrick's: 24.4 / 20.9

So while Junior did average about 3 and a half more assists per 100 possessions, he also averaged about 3 and a half more turnovers. So yeah, did Junior "push it" more often? Sure. But it didn't result in anything much better in the end.

I'd take Junior over Derrick. But of the PGs since 2000, Junior would be way down on my list and IMO the teams his junior and senior years would have been much better with a number of the PGs mentioned above.

[MUAlphaBangura]

Since you didn't debate the points, I'll take that as an acknowledgement that I'm right. Now that this debate is done, how about 6 topics raised in here that are more interesting than whether Junior is the 7th or 9th best PG of this century?

1) Travis Diener v Dominic James as the top PG. Travis was better offensively but Dom was an excellent defender.

2) Jimmy Butler v Wes Matthews. Both had great senior years and went on to NBA success. Wes had the overall numbers, but Jimmy led a Sweet 16 team.

3) For Phantom, how does Robert Jackson not make the top-3 teams? Despite one year, he was clearly (in my eyes) our best two way center.

4) How surprisingly loaded were we at PF? Lazar, Jae, Henry, Steve, all NBA draft picks and all conference players.

5) Is defense ignored? Many one-dimensional offensive players make these lists while defensive specialists like Otule, Derrick, Burke are ignored (including by me). Do those guys deserve more credit?

6) Best one-year player? Jackson, Carlino, Reinhardt, Lockett?

Wait.... who's obsessed????