OSU part 2

[TheSultan]

Shouldn't that peer pressure be helpful in keeping programs clean though? Michigan says to OSU, if we can't be on TV due to you being dirty, we aren't going to do you any favors at the big ten meetings etc.

I guess that is one way of looking at it.

But again, the fans are the ones that get screwed. And really I don't know how effective they were. Scholarship reductions are much more harmful.

[MU88]

Fine, but what does that have to do with my response to MU88? Actually sounds more like an example of an "above the fray" attitude.

You misread my response. I think OSU cheated. What I was complaining about was the article. I thought it lacked depth and support. Lots of he said, she said, but very little actual proof. Today's article isn't much better. They found what, 11 guys in a dozen years who claim to have had grades changes or had over zealous tutors. There is a lot of "this guy was illiterate, he couldn't have passed" or "how could this guy pass, he never went to class." But, there is little actual proof or evidence. I had a friend in law school with a photographic memory that never went to class. But, he aced his exams. Again, I am not saying OSU is innocent. I just think there is very little substance and a who lot of speculation and conjecture in the article.

[Hamostradamus]

There is a lot of proof in the article, arguably as much as anyone could ever legally obtain. 13 former players say they had improper help. The only other "facts" would be a lengthy paper trail of homework, exams, and report cards that show a student did D work and got a B+, or that the handwriting on the exam doesn't match Joe Smith, or that the grammar and word choice in a paper doesn't match the student's normal vocabulary. Unless OSU wants to violate Federal privacy law, or unless a former player wants to release his entire academic file (I doubt any university keeps copies of homework and exams, but whatever), no more proof would exist. So if this isn't enough "proof" of grade fixing, then I would argue grade fixing could (almost) never be proven.

[Goose85]

There is a lot of proof in the article, arguably as much as anyone could ever legally obtain. 13 former players say they had improper help. The only other "facts" would be a lengthy paper trail of homework, exams, and report cards that show a student did D work and got a B+, or that the handwriting on the exam doesn't match Joe Smith, or that the grammar and word choice in a paper doesn't match the student's normal vocabulary. Unless OSU wants to violate Federal privacy law, or unless a former player wants to release his entire academic file (I doubt any university keeps copies of homework and exams, but whatever), no more proof would exist. So if this isn't enough "proof" of grade fixing, then I would argue grade fixing could (almost) never be proven.

I doubt any teacher is going to admit to changing grades, and from what I've seen the one guy that was supposed to have been writting papers for some of these guys says he didn't do anything of the sort.

Again - like with Duke and Lance Thomas, if the professors and the tutors aren't admitting to anything, even if they think something happened, what can the NCAA do? Your point of grade fixing, without some concrete proof, is very difficult to prove.

[Hamostradamus]

Again - like with Duke and Lance Thomas, if the professors and the tutors aren't admitting to anything, even if they think something happened, what can the NCAA do? Your point of grade fixing, without some concrete proof, is very difficult to prove.

I agree with you. Proof-wise, this is as good as it can get in terms of establishing grade fixing. There is little else that can be produced.

[MU88]

I think the UNC stuff was much more thorough. You had significantly more evidence behind the accusations. I just think this article sounds really bad when you read it, but the proof is minimal. In the past 12 years, I bet you had what 300 to 350 students play football at OSU. You have 13 saying on record that they got improper cash or they got a grade changed or they talked a prof into giving a better grade because they felt sorry for the kid because he was too hurt to go to class. Geez. Wanna bet there is some kid at almost every school that talked a soft-hearted prof into changing a grade. As a non-athlete, I could relate to the claim that a prof ask the player what grade he deserved and then the prof turned around and gave him a higher one. The exact same happened to me in econ. Plus, you are talking about things that in many cases happened over 10 years ago. I think the fish stories get bigger with time. So, a reporter needs to dig deeper and get better sources. You need to get the tutor or the prof to talk, even it means not revealing their names. I think I would have much faith in the story if the author had at least an unnamed prof or tutor confirming the allegations.

Again, I think OSU probably cheated, but I think the author did a poor job of proving it.

BTW, if you want to read a pretty decent book on cheating, read David Ridpath's book on Marshall. Its a quick read. He is a bit of a whiner. But, it is fascinating at the lengths they went to cheat.

[Markedman]

and lets not forget the good old SEC

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...202513237.html

[TheSultan]

I pretty much agree with everything Dan Wetzel says in this column.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...210822795.html

[Hamostradamus]

and lets not forget the good old SEC

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--...202513237.html

Sweet Jebus, this is getting ridiculous. And Wetzel is right. Lots of handwringing, a bunch of "we don't have subpoena power," and this too shall pass. And I have a new signature line.

[Goose85]

This article makes the SI stuff look foolish. He has receipts, phone conversations, etc. SI just has former players who left on bad terms.

Well, the NCAA came down hard on USC for Bush's mom getting an apartment paid for, I guess Alabama just lost the 2012 national championship if they are consistent.