21st Century All-MU Teams

[Nukem2]

Junior, with all of his many flaws, was simply the straw that stirred the drink. Just what it was. Right guy at the right time for the right coach.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

As Caribou said, my feelings about Junior are well documented. He was a below average point guard and one of the worst to start for Marquette. I know it, many simply won't accept it. Why people want to have this discussion again, I have no idea. There are literally over a dozen other players we can discuss with comments that haven't already been rehashed in numerous other threads. But if anything sums up why Junior wasn't good, it is this...

Junior, with all of his many flaws, was simply the straw that stirred the drink. Just what it was. Right guy at the right time for the right coach.

Basically, this reads "Junior may have been crap, but he was on a good team." The guy had very few redeeming qualities on the court, but he was charismatic and played on successful teams. He wasn't the reason for that success, but he didn't stand in the way of it, so people laud him. And he was followed by the much-maligned Derrick Wilson, so he's remembered more fondly because of the success we had before Derrick took over. I mean, look at the comments from the people that are trying to argue in his favor:

Certainly had his flaws...

It was no coincidence that DG's production and the team in general dropped significantly the season after he left.

But those are just stats. There are also intangibles, like leadership, like running an offense, like getting the ball to the right person in exactly the right place at the right time.

Where does Junior's defense ability compared to Mo's defense come into play?

Junior, with all of his many flaws, was simply the straw that stirred the drink.

Do you guys realize that none of that actually compliments Junior? He had flaws, he was only good because of the people around him, he didn't produce but had "intangibles", his defense sucked, and more about flaws. You know what I don't see? Any compelling arguments as to why he is worth being a top-6 PG at Marquette this century. Any compelling argument as to why he was actually a top-10 PG in the conference his senior year.

He didn't produce, he didn't play good defense, and every starting point guard getting mentions here had as good or better intangibles than Junior. But please, let's talk more about how he was a "winner", or "the straw that stirred the drink", or any other trite cliche that completely ignores the simple reality that Marquette would've been better in the years Junior started with almost anyone else this century playing there.

And as far as defense, which again, comparing Junior's poor defense to Acker's poor defense is NOT a compliment to Junior, what Acker brought as a total package was simply far above what Junior brought. Similarly, Markus Howard isn't a great defender. He's still already a better player now than Junior was as a senior. Guys, pointing out other's deficiencies does not elevate Junior.

Now can we move on to talking about any other of the numerous points raised in this thread, or do you all want to keep damning Junior with faint praise that only reveals what you all secretly know but refuse to admit, he wasn't a very good player.

[TheSultan]

Especially "running the offense" and "getting the ball to the right guy at the right time." Statistically, he struggled with those things. Turned the ball over way too much.

I mean, even with the "eye test" he wasn't really all that great so I have no idea what people are seeing here.

[Nukem2]

Especially "running the offense" and "getting the ball to the right guy at the right time." Statistically, he struggled with those things. Turned the ball over way too much.

I mean, even with the "eye test" he wasn't really all that great so I have no idea what people are seeing here.

Sorry, but he was the guy that figured out to get the ball to Davante. Numbers are meaningless. He just made things happen.

[TheSultan]

Sorry, but he was the guy that figured out to get the ball to Davante. You guys are ignorant.

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.

[Nukem2]

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.

But but, Derrick had nothing other than beating up on an injured Jordan Taylor when the rules were different. Junior really did make a difference. Sometimes stats are meaningless. Just what it is buddy.

[Nukem2]

I mean, was that something no other PG could do? I mean, Junior did do that. So did Derrick Wilson. They had similar assist rates with the same players around them but Junior turned it over more.

Really Nukem you calling someone ignorant, when you show a continued willful ignorance of statistics, is rich. Look Junior was just a guy. Not a bad player, but hardly more than a decent one.

Part 2, let's use a football example. Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings. Joe Kapp had horrible numbers but made the Vikes good. Stats do not represent not the whole story!!

[TheSultan]

But but, Derrick had nothing other than beating up on an injured Jordan Taylor when the rules were different. Junior really did make a difference. Sometimes stats are meaningless. Just what it is buddy.

I never said Derrick was better than Junior. Junior just wasn't as good as you think he is. You could put a handful of 21st Century PGs in his place on those teams and they would be better off.

[Nukem2]

I never said Derrick was better than Junior. Junior just wasn't as good as you think he is. You could put a handful of 21st Century PGs in his place on those teams and they would be better off.

We will just disagree. Junior was just the right guy and Buzz knew it as well despite that Badger game and that bar incident that aJunior was part of. As I noted earlier, Lazar and their teammates knew him well. You can disagree, but that's you. Have a good eve.

[TheSultan]

Part 2, let's use a football example. Fran Tarkenton had great numbers but did zilch for the Vikings. Joe Kapp had horrible numbers but made the Vikes good. Stats do not represent not the whole story!!

Tarkenton lead the Vikings to six division titles, three Super Bowls and is in the NFL Hall of Fame. Kapp lead them to one Super Bowl, and they dumped him as soon as they could get the Giants to trade Tarkenton back.

Really this is a bad sports statement and should teach you a couple valuable lessons. First, your brain misremembers things. Second, it misremembers them more often when you are bringing up examples from 45 years ago.