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Thread: 21st Century All-MU Teams

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77" View Post
    Junior played on winning teams, which isn't the same thing. He was a below average, slow footed defender and poor shooter. At best the sixth best point guard this century, and that may be generous.
    ...and your opinion. Your utter dislike for Junior is well noted. It was no coincidence that DG's production and the team in general dropped significantly the season after he left.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CaribouJim View Post
    ...and your opinion. Your utter dislike for Junior is well noted. It was no coincidence that DG's production and the team in general dropped significantly the season after he left.
    It's my list, so yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to that.

    Though his poor shooting and defensive deficiencies were much discussed while he was here, so I'm not sure how that's just opinion. And I'd unquestionably take Diener, James, Acker, Henry, Howard, and Rowsey over him. Probably Buycks too, since despite not being a true PG, Junior couldn't beat him out. Cubillan as well maybe?

    Junior is a top-10 point guard of the last 18 years at Marquette. That's about it. Say whatever you want about the team's dip in production when he left, any of the teams he was on would've been better with the guys listed above, and 2014 would've been better with them than had Junior been around another year.

  3. #13
    Come on, Brewcity,

    Probably Buycks because Junior couldn't beat him out? I can't believe you said that.

    In 2009-2010 Junior was injured and probably should not have played at all while Buycks was a junior. How did DB play as a junior? Not very productive - 6.4 ppg and 2.1 apg in 23.6 mpg and shot 27.3% from behind the arc. And shooting/scoring were what he was supposed to do best.

    In 2010-2011, Junior was, for all intents and purposes, a red-shirt freshman while DB was a senior with three years of college ball behind him. Junior was still to back to 100%. D.B.'s senior season was a whole lot better than his junior season.

    Still, compare Junior's senior season to Dwight's. Junior averaged 8.5 ppg and 3.8 apg in 28.1 mpg and shots 43.1% from the field. Dwight averaged 8.8 pg and 3.4 apg in 28.1 mpg and shot 46.1 % from the field as our starting point guard. Pretty much a wash.

    But those are just stats. There are also intangibles, like leadership, like running an offense, like getting the ball to the right person in exactly the right place at the right time. Many fans did not appreciate the subtle contributions Junior made. You, apparently, are one of them.

    As far as Mo versus Junior, I think Junior's three year career (not including frosh season) was, overall, better than Mo's even though Mo shot lights out as a senior.

  4. #14
    Jeez...leave St. Junior off your list and suddenly everyone has to come out to defend the guy who couldn't shoot or defend while turning it over far too much. We've had this conversation 100 times before, yet somehow people want to have it again.

    In the Pomeroy era, Marquette has four seasons where the starting point guard didn't have a 100+ Offensive rating. Two of those belong to Junior (the others are Derrick). Junior gets a pass for his first two years because he "wasn't ready". That's half his damn career. Bad decisions to not redshirt, inability to beat out a SG for his own position, we'll throw that out the window because...umm...next question.

    If someone prefers him to Buycks, who also wasn't a very good point guard until after he left here, I guess that's your prerogative. But putting him on par with Diener, James, Acker, or Henry is just laughable. Acker's senior season was heads and tails better than anything Junior did here. Not even remotely comparable. And I don't think he was close to either of our point guards now.

    If someone wants to figure out where Junior ranks in regards to Cubillan, Buycks, and Derrick Wilson, I guess that's their prerogative. But he's not in the top-6 in this century and he's not close to being good enough to be honorable mention on my list.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77" View Post
    Jeez...leave St. Junior off your list and suddenly everyone has to come out to defend the guy who couldn't shoot or defend while turning it over far too much. We've had this conversation 100 times before, yet somehow people want to have it again.

    In the Pomeroy era, Marquette has four seasons where the starting point guard didn't have a 100+ Offensive rating. Two of those belong to Junior (the others are Derrick). Junior gets a pass for his first two years because he "wasn't ready". That's half his damn career. Bad decisions to not redshirt, inability to beat out a SG for his own position, we'll throw that out the window because...umm...next question.

    If someone prefers him to Buycks, who also wasn't a very good point guard until after he left here, I guess that's your prerogative. But putting him on par with Diener, James, Acker, or Henry is just laughable. Acker's senior season was heads and tails better than anything Junior did here. Not even remotely comparable. And I don't think he was close to either of our point guards now.

    If someone wants to figure out where Junior ranks in regards to Cubillan, Buycks, and Derrick Wilson, I guess that's their prerogative. But he's not in the top-6 in this century and he's not close to being good enough to be honorable mention on my list.

    Well stated. I thought Junior was the weakest link on the S16 and E8 teams his junior and senior years. He was consistently getting exploited defensively, and his inability to stretch defenses was a problem. People are overrating him because they won. But those teams would have been better with Acker, Henry, James and Diener as PG.

  6. #16
    I didn't put him on a par with Travis, D.J., or Henry, which is why I list those three ahead of Junior. By the way, Cordell was not all that good his first two years either. I give you Mo's senior season versus Junior's, but other than his senior year Mo was basically not much of a factor. In fact, he barely played at all second semester junior year as Buzz pretty much exiled him to the bench.

  7. #17
    Buzz exiled him because, like Cooby, he was trying to run them off the team and has admitted as much.

    The thing with guys like Junior is it's all intangibles. He was a great effort guy, but no one questioned the effort of Travis, Dom, Acker, Henry, or currently Howard or Rowsey. Those guys had intangibles and production. Junior only had intangibles, and some of those (specifically defense) were bad.

    Junior was a fine point guard if he was your backup. For us, he started for two years and was the weakest link. Look at his senior year contemporaries in the Big East. Peyton Siva, Markel Starks, Trayvon Woodall, Michael Carter-Williams, Jerian Grant, Shabazz Napier, Cashmere Wright, Vincent Council, Myles Mack, and Brandon Young were all ahead of Junior.

    He's at best 7th at Marquette this century and wasn't top-10 in the league as a senior. I don't know why people get so defensive when he is brought up (and I didn't bring him up). He was just a guy.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77" View Post
    Buzz exiled him because, like Cooby, he was trying to run them off the team and has admitted as much.
    There may have been some pretty good reasons for that.
    Last edited by IWB; 07-24-2017 at 01:56 PM.
    "When March Madness spills into April.... that's the gravy!" - Homer Simpson

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77" View Post
    Buzz exiled him because, like Cooby, he was trying to run them off the team and has admitted as much.

    The thing with guys like Junior is it's all intangibles. He was a great effort guy, but no one questioned the effort of Travis, Dom, Acker, Henry, or currently Howard or Rowsey. Those guys had intangibles and production. Junior only had intangibles, and some of those (specifically defense) were bad.

    Junior was a fine point guard if he was your backup. For us, he started for two years and was the weakest link. Look at his senior year contemporaries in the Big East. Peyton Siva, Markel Starks, Trayvon Woodall, Michael Carter-Williams, Jerian Grant, Shabazz Napier, Cashmere Wright, Vincent Council, Myles Mack, and Brandon Young were all ahead of Junior.

    He's at best 7th at Marquette this century and wasn't top-10 in the league as a senior. I don't know why people get so defensive when he is brought up (and I didn't bring him up). He was just a guy.


    I think people have a thing for "pure point guards." Especially on teams that win. However I don't think Junior was even all that good in that regard.

    Look at Mo Acker's senior year. Assist percentage of 24.6. Turnover percentage of 13.8. Junior's were 28.3 and 22.5. And don't give me intangibles when Junior was suspended twice his junior year causing him to miss the UW game and half of the WVU game.

  10. #20
    Where does Junior's defense ability compared to Mo's defense come into play?

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