Billy Garrett, Jr - DePaul

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Would Garrett play for Villanova? The Wildcats run a 7-man rotation right now. Would Garrett get in ahead of any of these? Josh Hart, Jalen Brunson, Mikal Bridges, Kris Jenkins, Eric Paschall, Darryl Reynolds, Donte DiVincenzo. If they were fully healthy, you could add Phil Booth and Omari Spellman to that, and lately Dylan Painter has been getting some run, though he's a big man and Garrett wouldn't play that role. Would they go to an 8-man rotation for Garrett? Maybe, but he'd definitely be the 8th man behind Reynolds and DiVincenzo.

Would he start for anyone else? From the bottom up...

• Georgetown: He would make the rotation but wouldn't start over Peak or Pryor, though I could see him starting in a 3-guard set instead of Mulmore/Mosley.
• St. John's: He wouldn't start over Ponds/LoVett/Ellison, the last thing the Johnnies need is a high-usage, low efficiency guy to take shots from their big 3.
• Xavier: No chance he'd start, though he'd probably get more chances with Sumner out (I do like him better than Goodin right now).
• Creighton: Definitely not at full strength, he isn't close to Watson, Foster, Zierden, or Thomas. Might get a bit of run with Watson out, but he's definitely not a starter for them.
• Seton Hall: That would be interesting, you can argue Garrett against Madison Jones, but what Jones does well is play within the team and get the hell out of the way of Desi and Carrington. Off the bench, Powell is definitely better than Garrett.
• Marquette: No chance he gets time over Howard, Rowsey, Reinhardt, or JJ. I'd take Wilson over him too, because he defers when necessary. Probably make the rotation ahead of how Cheatham is playing now, but definitely 5th or 6th man in our already crowded backcourt.
• Providence: He wouldn't sniff Cartwright or Lindsey's spots, might have a chance of starting ahead of Diallo/Jackson though.
• Butler: He wouldn't sniff the rotation, much less the starting lineup. Maybe the 10th man there.

So for Villanova, he wouldn't crack their current rotation, no chance whatsoever. For the rest of the league, he maybe starts for Georgetown, Seton Hall, or Providence, but not for anyone else at full strength. Again, a guy who could maybe start for 3 other teams in the league, and is the "best" player on his current perennial doormat, simply not that good of a player.

[Goose85]

I always look at where he has had to play the last four years. Must be depressing when two games into the conference season you know your season is done.
Good points by all, as this is obviously a subjective discussion. I've often had such discussions about players that left MU. Would their careers have been different if they played for Crean or Buzz where hard work and dedication to hoops came first, as opposed to a mid major or low D1 school where the facilities and focus isn't as great.

Would we all be talking about what a stud Howard has been this year if he was on DePaul and Garret was on MU? Just think if Howard was on DePaul, where 14 of your 18 conference games are against teams likely to get into the NCAA tourney, while your roster doesn't have a guy that would crack the rotation on almost all of them. Would he be as good as he has shown this year? If he is the focal point of every D, would he have had the same success?

Personally, I think Garrett is a product of his surroundings. I know others on the board think he is lucky to have a scholarship in the Big East. That is why coaches, and in the big leagues GMs, get big bucks and also get fired all the time, smart and successful people in the industry often see things differently.

[Nukem2]

Would Garrett play for Villanova? The Wildcats run a 7-man rotation right now. Would Garrett get in ahead of any of these? Josh Hart, Jalen Brunson, Mikal Bridges, Kris Jenkins, Eric Paschall, Darryl Reynolds, Donte DiVincenzo. If they were fully healthy, you could add Phil Booth and Omari Spellman to that, and lately Dylan Painter has been getting some run, though he's a big man and Garrett wouldn't play that role. Would they go to an 8-man rotation for Garrett? Maybe, but he'd definitely be the 8th man behind Reynolds and DiVincenzo.

Would he start for anyone else? From the bottom up...

• Georgetown: He would make the rotation but wouldn't start over Peak or Pryor, though I could see him starting in a 3-guard set instead of Mulmore/Mosley.
• St. John's: He wouldn't start over Ponds/LoVett/Ellison, the last thing the Johnnies need is a high-usage, low efficiency guy to take shots from their big 3.
• Xavier: No chance he'd start, though he'd probably get more chances with Sumner out (I do like him better than Goodin right now).
• Creighton: Definitely not at full strength, he isn't close to Watson, Foster, Zierden, or Thomas. Might get a bit of run with Watson out, but he's definitely not a starter for them.
• Seton Hall: That would be interesting, you can argue Garrett against Madison Jones, but what Jones does well is play within the team and get the hell out of the way of Desi and Carrington. Off the bench, Powell is definitely better than Garrett.
• Marquette: No chance he gets time over Howard, Rowsey, Reinhardt, or JJ. I'd take Wilson over him too, because he defers when necessary. Probably make the rotation ahead of how Cheatham is playing now, but definitely 5th or 6th man in our already crowded backcourt.
• Providence: He wouldn't sniff Cartwright or Lindsey's spots, might have a chance of starting ahead of Diallo/Jackson though.
• Butler: He wouldn't sniff the rotation, much less the starting lineup. Maybe the 10th man there.

So for Villanova, he wouldn't crack their current rotation, no chance whatsoever. For the rest of the league, he maybe starts for Georgetown, Seton Hall, or Providence, but not for anyone else at full strength. Again, a guy who could maybe start for 3 other teams in the league, and is the "best" player on his current perennial doormat, simply not that good of a player.

The high usage/low efficiency stuff, once again, is more a function of the DePaul situation. Had he gone elsewhere, his numbers would likely have been much different? As Goose said, it is a subjective discussion. As I posted earlier, I would have far rather have had Garrett at PG than Derrick Wilson and Cheatham/Carter for the 3 seasons prior to this one. Bottom line is he had a nice career at a bad BB school. He was not chopped liver like some posters seem to be suggesting. On to Sunday @ 4:30.

[Phantom Warrior]

Wow. I am reading this thread and wondering if I accidentally entered the Twilight Zone. What universe am I reading in?

BG would definitely be in our rotation, and in my mind he'd likely be a starter, either at the 2 or at the 3. For BE games only, he is averaging 15.1 ppg (13th in the conference), 3.3 apg (10th), 83.5% on free throws (4th), 1.4 spg (10th). He is not a great outside shooter, but he averaged 36.6% in his 18 BE games (36.8% if you include the BET game). That is certainly a respectable figure. His free throw percentage is important because he got to the line 5 or 6 times on average per game more than any MU player averaged.

And all of this despite the fact that DePaul did not have a true 5 on the roster so that a 6'7" forward was their primary 5, and a non-scoring 6'7" forward in Hamel (4.6 ppg in 25.7 mpg) was playing the 4. On top of that was a freshman guard, Cyrus, who averaged a whopping 4.6 ppg in over 26 mpg.

In short, opponents game planned to stop Cain and to stop Garrett.

In terms of our seven "perimeter" players, personally, I would take Garrett over Haanif, Duane, JJ, and Reinhardt. With his ability to play either point or the 2 guard, he could have paired up with Markus or Rowsey in the back court and defended the opponent's best guard, and he would have allowed either Markus or Rowsey to play the 2 on offense for most of their minutes. We would have been a better team on offense and on defense. BG would not have had to take as many shots at MU as he did at DePaul, which means he would have increased his shooting percentage, probably both from the field overall and from behind the arc.

Divide up the 80 mpg between Markus, Rowsey, and BG at the 1 and 2, and both Markus and Rosey would have been able to see more mpg than they did, yet for 27-28mpg we would have had a 6'6" guard on the floor that could actually play solid defense.

Wojo would have loved to have BG on his roster this year.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

Using stats like ppg to talk about the value of Garrett when that's exactly part of the problem with Garrett indicates not that you've entered the Twilight Zone, but that you never left. Talking about his free throw percentage as though that has any meaning or significance whatsoever only cements that.

If you want to love Billy Garrett, that's fine. You can look at the "best" player on a terrible team and think that because he shines brighter than the rest of the players around him, he actually is a good player. You can think back to that one layup and phantom foul against Marquette and wonder what might have been if he'd been in Blue and Gold. You can look at ppg in the vacuum of ignoring his terrible eFG% and poor offensive efficiency.

Maybe on a better team he would have been a better player. Maybe with better coaching he would have been a better player. But the reality is he wasn't on a better team and he didn't have better coaching and thus is not a better player. Quite simply, he went to DePaul. The teams he has been on have been terrible and his style of play and ball dominance has been a big part of why they have been terrible. Him continuing to dominate the ball despite being one of the worst shooters on a team that shoots poorly on the whole is a massive problem. You can blame that on the coaching staff, you can blame that on JLP, you can blame that on his father, or you can blame that on Garrett himself, but the reality is the way he plays makes DePaul a worse team and he is a living embodiment of why DePaul was bad under Purnell and hasn't got better under Leitao.

[Goose85]

Using stats like ppg to talk about the value of Garrett when that's exactly part of the problem with Garrett indicates not that you've entered the Twilight Zone, but that you never left. Talking about his free throw percentage as though that has any meaning or significance whatsoever only cements that.

If you want to love Billy Garrett, that's fine. You can look at the "best" player on a terrible team and think that because he shines brighter than the rest of the players around him, he actually is a good player. You can think back to that one layup and phantom foul against Marquette and wonder what might have been if he'd been in Blue and Gold. You can look at ppg in the vacuum of ignoring his terrible eFG% and poor offensive efficiency.

Maybe on a better team he would have been a better player. Maybe with better coaching he would have been a better player. But the reality is he wasn't on a better team and he didn't have better coaching and thus is not a better player. Quite simply, he went to DePaul. The teams he has been on have been terrible and his style of play and ball dominance has been a big part of why they have been terrible. Him continuing to dominate the ball despite being one of the worst shooters on a team that shoots poorly on the whole is a massive problem. You can blame that on the coaching staff, you can blame that on JLP, you can blame that on his father, or you can blame that on Garrett himself, but the reality is the way he plays makes DePaul a worse team and he is a living embodiment of why DePaul was bad under Purnell and hasn't got better under Leitao.

So you think DePaul will be a much better team next year?

[Nukem2]

Wow. I am reading this thread and wondering if I accidentally entered the Twilight Zone. What universe am I reading in?

BG would definitely be in our rotation, and in my mind he'd likely be a starter, either at the 2 or at the 3. For BE games only, he is averaging 15.1 ppg (13th in the conference), 3.3 apg (10th), 83.5% on free throws (4th), 1.4 spg (10th). He is not a great outside shooter, but he averaged 36.6% in his 18 BE games (36.8% if you include the BET game). That is certainly a respectable figure. His free throw percentage is important because he got to the line 5 or 6 times on average per game more than any MU player averaged.

And all of this despite the fact that DePaul did not have a true 5 on the roster so that a 6'7" forward was their primary 5, and a non-scoring 6'7" forward in Hamel (4.6 ppg in 25.7 mpg) was playing the 4. On top of that was a freshman guard, Cyrus, who averaged a whopping 4.6 ppg in over 26 mpg.

[B]In short, opponents game planned to stop Cain and to stop Garrett.[/B]
In terms of our seven "perimeter" players, personally, I would take Garrett over Haanif, Duane, JJ, and Reinhardt. With his ability to play either point or the 2 guard, he could have paired up with Markus or Rowsey in the back court and defended the opponent's best guard, and he would have allowed either Markus or Rowsey to play the 2 on offense for most of their minutes. We would have been a better team on offense and on defense. BG would not have had to take as many shots at MU as he did at DePaul, which means he would have increased his shooting percentage, probably both from the field overall and from behind the arc.

Divide up the 80 mpg between Markus, Rowsey, and BG at the 1 and 2, and both Markus and Rosey would have been able to see more mpg than they did, yet for 27-28mpg we would have had a 6'6" guard on the floor that could actually play solid defense.

Wojo would have loved to have BG on his roster this year.

Yep, Wojo said so after the DePaul wins.

[Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"]

So you think DePaul will be a much better team next year?

Much better? Not necessarily. I still think they'll be near the bottom of the league. But I do think the departure of Garrett will make it easier for their team to start improving. When Leitao was there the first time, his success came from having numerous options. Greer, Holland, Mejia, Drake Diener, they had a diverse offense with numerous players that could contribute. The dominance of Garrett and Cain makes that virtually impossible for this team. If Leitao's recruits can start to contribute, I could see them taking a step forward. I don't think it will be some mammoth step to 7-9 Big East wins, but 4-6 wouldn't surprise me at all.

The biggest hurdle they face right now is playing in this league. They aren't passing Villanova, Xavier, or Butler any time soon. With recruiting and results, Creighton, Providence, and Marquette are clearly trending up. That leaves Seton Hall, who is good now but is largely on the basis of one recruiting class, St. John's, who seems to be ready to come out of the cellar and could be a tourney team as soon as next year, and Georgetown, who is the one team I could see DePaul passing in the short term depending on their coaching situation.

Clearing out Purnell's deadwood is important. He did a poor job at assembling a team and tried to build around one top-100 recruit, which was always going to fail. It'll take another year or two for his guys to start to mature, and going the JUCO route like he did with McCallum could help speed the process. They're still in on some quality players for 2017 and 2018. They'll be interesting to watch. Not sure he'll ever get the necessary commitment with JLP in charge, but a new arena and a few wins could very well have them trending up sooner than many expect.

Leitao's not necessarily a savior, but I don't think he's that bad of a coach. The question that has never really been answered (because he hasn't been anywhere long enough) is if he can win with his own recruits. I like some of the guys he's bringing in, but it remains to be seen if he's a better team-builder than Purnell was.

[CaribouJim]

I don't get the over the top vitriol for BG Junior...."garbage"..."trash"??? Has he taken up robbing banks or something?

[DavidBoone2inchesTaller]

This 'effin piece of garbage just won the Big East Sportmanship Award and the Big East Men's Basketball - Scholar Athlete of the Year Award. Not only does he not deserve to play basketball in the Big East, frankly, he is not fit to walk this earth, literally.

This piece of crap of a human being has the SC form of Sickle Cell Disease which clogs his blood vessels and stops blood flow to his legs and several organs at a moments notice. The nerve of this piece of crap to think he can play in the vaunted Big East Conference while having that disease. WTF? Who does he think he is to play with pain so unbearable that sometimes it takes him 4 days in a hospital to recover during the season? Or a disease that at times shuts down all of his organs. He should not be playing in the Big East Conference. He's got no business playing basketball in any conference.

It pi$$es me off to no end that this piece of crap of a player had the nerve to think he would not let Sickle Cell Disease control his life. Silly Billy... didn't he know that he is worthless and that disease always wins? His game is just so weak at times, literally.

Plus, he's only considered a leader because he sucks. I only call him a leader because this piece of crap wouldn't start for any team in the Big East Conference with the exception DePaul.

He is the only Division I player in the NCAA that plays with SC - Sickle Cell Disease. He is the "exception" to the rule.

In other words, he is an "exceptional player" in every sense of that phrase.