One year late?

You add Carlino to last year's team and we make the Sweet 16.

I think that is a big stretch......might have made the tournament....maybe

Junior made others better offensively. We haven't had a PG that fits that description since and given his gunner mentality, I'm not sure Carlino makes anyone better on that end either.

Honestly, the last PG we had that I was really happy with was Travis Diener. DJ was great on defense, but a poor shooter and just incomplete as an offensive player. Junior was sub-par defensively, a poor shooter, but made up for it with good passing and a knack for the clutch play. Derrick is poor offensively but good defensively. For a school that takes so much pride in its point guards, it's been a long time since we had one worth bragging about. Hopefully Wojo can find someone on the transfer wire, because I don't see Duane being that guy next year either, though he's probably got the most upside of anyone since TD.

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Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"

Honestly, the last PG we had that I was really happy with was Travis Diener. DJ was great on defense, but a poor shooter and just incomplete as an offensive player. Junior was sub-par defensively, a poor shooter, but made up for it with good passing and a knack for the clutch play. Derrick is poor offensively but good defensively. For a school that takes so much pride in its point guards, it's been a long time since we had one worth bragging about. Hopefully Wojo can find someone on the transfer wire, because I don't see Duane being that guy next year either, though he's probably got the most upside of anyone since TD.

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Totally disagree. DJ and Junior had their weaknesses, as did Travis on defens often, but they made their teammates better. Derrick is really a small forward this year and is doing well defensively and rebounding, but to have the ball in his hands with 10-12 seconds onthe shot clock ( as we saw quite a bit today ) is simply not very productive. Duane can at least create things.

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

Totally disagree. DJ and Junior had their weaknesses, as did Travis on defens often, but they made their teammates better. Derrick is really a small forward this year and is doing well defensively and rebounding, but to have the ball in his hands with 10-12 seconds onthe shot clock ( as we saw quite a bit today ) is simply not very productive. Duane can at least create things.

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Derrick as a senior was better than Junior as a senior in terms of offensive rating, 2-point field goal percentage, 3-point field goal percentage, eFG%, offensive and defensive rebounding, rebounds, assists, and steals per game, turnover rate, turnovers per game, and free throw rate.

Junior scored more, shot free throws better, and had a better assist rate. However he also took 20.4% of the team's shots on a team with Vander, Mayo, Gardner, Jamil, Otule, and Lockett, all of whom were more efficient offensively. The only reason Junior scored more despite shooting worse is because he took a higher percentage of shots, and when I have a sub-par shooting PG (both Junior and Derrick are) the last thing I want him doing is shooting more. And none of this mentions that Derrick, while not necessarily an elite defender, is a much, much better defender than Junior.

Given the choice between Junior and Derrick as seniors, I would absolutely take Derrick. No question. If the choice is James, I'd take James, but he was not without his flaws. Derrick and DJ are actually surprisingly comparable. James obviously shot more and thus scored more, but all of their shooting percentages are very close, both protected the ball and played defense. Derrick was a little better rebounder, James was better at assists, but how much of that was a product of having Jerel, WesMat, and Lazar instead of Carlino, Duane, and Fischer?

Not saying Derrick is a stud, but ranking them, I'd say James > Derrick > Junior. Travis was well ahead of all of them. Also, I have a feeling Derrick's assist rate would be quite a bit higher if Duane and Luke weren't missing no-footers.

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Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"

Derrick as a senior was better than Junior as a senior in terms of offensive rating, 2-point field goal percentage, 3-point field goal percentage, eFG%, offensive and defensive rebounding, rebounds, assists, and steals per game, turnover rate, turnovers per game, and free throw rate.

Junior scored more, shot free throws better, and had a better assist rate. However he also took 20.4% of the team's shots on a team with Vander, Mayo, Gardner, Jamil, Otule, and Lockett, all of whom were more efficient offensively. The only reason Junior scored more despite shooting worse is because he took a higher percentage of shots, and when I have a sub-par shooting PG (both Junior and Derrick are) the last thing I want him doing is shooting more. And none of this mentions that Derrick, while not necessarily an elite defender, is a much, much better defender than Junior.

Given the choice between Junior and Derrick as seniors, I would absolutely take Derrick. No question. If the choice is James, I'd take James, but he was not without his flaws. Derrick and DJ are actually surprisingly comparable. James obviously shot more and thus scored more, but all of their shooting percentages are very close, both protected the ball and played defense. Derrick was a little better rebounder, James was better at assists, but how much of that was a product of having Jerel, WesMat, and Lazar instead of Carlino, Duane, and Fischer?

Not saying Derrick is a stud, but ranking them, I'd say James > Derrick > Junior. Travis was well ahead of all of them. Also, I have a feeling Derrick's assist rate would be quite a bit higher if Duane and Luke weren't missing no-footers.

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Derrick does not feed the post very well. Junior could get Davante the ball. BTW, JaJuan did a very nice job of feeding the post in his minutes yesterday. A heavy proportion of Derrick's assists have been passing the ball to Jake and Matt these past 2 seasons. Derrick's best work this season has been in the back of the zone and in rebounding and attacking the basket when that is available.

Sultan,

If you would really take Derrick as a senior over Junior as a senior as our point guard, then you do not understand the game.

The best part of Derrick's game this year is his rebounding, and that's partially because he is often playing on the bottom of the zone. The primary function of a point guard is to run the offense and be the coach on the court. Our offense sucks in large part because Derrick is not really a point guard.

He does not see the flow of the game on offense and anticipate it. He does not make the pass that leads to the pass that is the assist. He does not get his teammates the ball at exactly the right time in the right place.

Derrick is an off guard who can not shoot and can not create his own shot. He is not, and never will be, a point guard.

He does not create baskets in transition. He pushes the ball with the dribble rather than the pass. He makes poor decisions on the break.

Junior was as good a point guard as we have had at pushing the ball up court via the pass - often after one dribble, sometimes two.

When the shot clock was winding down, Junior could at least get off a mid-range shot, especially as a senior. Derrick has zero mid-range game - zero.

Derrick still often stands at the top of the key and dribbles, dribbles, dribbles, all the while standing in place. There is virtually no ball movement when he does that. None. And our entire offense grinds to a screeching halt.

Put Junior on this team with Carlino, Duane, and Luke, and I will tell you straight out - all three of those guys are much more effective offensively than they are now with Derrick running the show.

If you don't see that, don't understand that, then I don't know what else to tell you. If Junior were at point this year instead of Derrick, we would have at least three or four more wins. And that is the bottom line.

Junior was much maligned during his career because many fans did not recognize what he brought on offense. He was as under-appreciated as any player I've seen in the program in the last 20 years.

Derrick over Junior as a starting point guard? Ugh!

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Originally Posted by Phantom Warrior

Sultan,

If you would really take Derrick as a senior over Junior as a senior as our point guard, then you do not understand the game.

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I stopped reading after this sentence.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

I stopped reading after this sentence.

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I stopped after reading that sentence. ;). Seriously, Junior was simply the superior PG. Buzz knew what he was doing. Otherwise, Derrick would have played far more as a soph. As Phantom notes, Derrick does not create for others. Yes, he is a surer ball handler than Junior was and a better defender. But, the PG needs to create and help others. As PW notes, Derrick just dribbles around and can't get his own shot. Just not a natural PG. Love all the other things he does, but he is simply not a playmaker. Most of his assists are to 3 point shooters in ball rotation.

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

I stopped after reading that sentence. ;). Seriously, Junior was simply the superior PG. Buzz knew what he was doing. Otherwise, Derrick would have played far more as a soph. As Phantom notes, Derrick does not create for others. Yes, he is a surer ball handler than Junior was and a better defender. But, the PG needs to create and help others. As PW notes, Derrick just dribbles around and can't get his own shot. Just not a natural PG. Love all the other things he does, but he is simply not a playmaker. Most of his assists are to 3 point shooters in ball rotation.

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Ah the whole "not a good enough assist" argument.

I understand a lot of what you are saying. However I think if you put Derrick on the S16 and E8 teams as a starter, those teams would have still be largely successful. If you put Junior on last year's or this year's team, and they would have struggled.

So is it Derrick's fault when he feeds Luke in the post and Luke either misses a layup or turns it over when he puts the ball on the floor? The missing link last year was Vander opening the offense up with his driving. The missing link this year is...well, a lot. Derrick's biggest failing is taking the blame for what others can't do. Question my understanding of the game all you like, but I fully believe Derrick is a better player now than Junior ever was for us.

No, it is Derrick's fault when Luke posts up and Derrick has a decent passing angle but doesn't deliver the pass. And it is Derrick's fault when Derrick does not take a dribble or two in anticipation of Luke posting up to have the correct passing angle.

You must have missed last season when Davante worked his considerable butt off to get position but Derrick could not/did not deliver the ball. Or Derrick's man had dropped so far off of him because he could not shoot so that there was no way to get the ball down to the low post.

I don't know if you guys play chess or not, but if you do, maybe this will help you understand my point.

There are chess players who play one move at a time. They move based on the positions of all the other pieces on the board. They play in the present but do not look ahead.

The superior chess player looks at various options three, four, five moves ahead and makes his next move accordingly.

Derrick sees what is, and even then does not take advantage of it at times. Junior saw what could be.

I remember when Junior was sitting out as a freshman, he joined Homer on the radio broadcast. Homer made a comment about an MU player making the right play/decision on a fast break, but it was unlucky that it didn't work out. Junior had the balls to tell Homer that, no, it wasn't the right decision because the player did not see what would happen next after his pass as opposed to what would happen if he had made a different pass.

That's the difference. If you have ever coached, you know that some years you have a player at point guard who has point guard skills but not a point guard brain/mentality, and that every once in awhile, you get lucky, and you have someone playing point who not only can dribble and pass but who also understands the position and makes everyone else on the team better.

Derrick is NOT a point guard. Junior was.

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Originally Posted by Phantom Warrior

No, it is Derrick's fault when Luke posts up and Derrick has a decent passing angle but doesn't deliver the pass. And it is Derrick's fault when Derrick does not take a dribble or two in anticipation of Luke posting up to have the correct passing angle.

You must have missed last season when Davante worked his considerable butt off to get position but Derrick could not/did not deliver the ball. Or Derrick's man had dropped so far off of him because he could not shoot so that there was no way to get the ball down to the low post.

I don't know if you guys play chess or not, but if you do, maybe this will help you understand my point.

There are chess players who play one move at a time. They move based on the positions of all the other pieces on the board. They play in the present but do not look ahead.

The superior chess player looks at various options three, four, five moves ahead and makes his next move accordingly.

Derrick sees what is, and even then does not take advantage of it at times. Junior saw what could be.

I remember when Junior was sitting out as a freshman, he joined Homer on the radio broadcast. Homer made a comment about an MU player making the right play/decision on a fast break, but it was unlucky that it didn't work out. Junior had the balls to tell Homer that, no, it wasn't the right decision because the player did not see what would happen next after his pass as opposed to what would happen if he had made a different pass.

That's the difference. If you have ever coached, you know that some years you have a player at point guard who has point guard skills but not a point guard brain/mentality, and that every once in awhile, you get lucky, and you have someone playing point who not only can dribble and pass but who also understands the position and makes everyone else on the team better.

Derrick is NOT a point guard. Junior was.

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Yup. Derrick does some very good things on the court. But, he is simply not an instinctive PG. He has my admiration for what he can do. But, there are PG things he just cannot do. He what he is is and he is ours. All that does not make him a good PG. Good BB player, but not a high Div 1 PG.

Junior's anticipation was also wrong quite a bit, which led to his turnovers. Junior was a worse shooter his senior year and after 21 games I think we can call that statistically significant. Derrick and Junior were at the same time similar and opposite. Both shot poorly, Derrick was a much better defender, Junior was a better distributor, Derrick was better at protecting the ball, Junior scored more. At the end of the day they were both significantly flawed. Neither would have turned either of the past two teams into tourney teams.

In the past decade, I'd rank them Diener, James, Acker, Derrick, Junior, Buycks. The only one that really excites me of those names is the first. Watching Derrick's improvement this year, I'm encouraged with what this staff can do with Duane and other guards in the coming years. We simply don't have the level of talent on these past two teams we did in years past. That's neither Junior's not Derrick's fault, but acting like one of them would have been a panacea and the other not is just ridiculous when you look at their actual body of work.

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Originally Posted by Alan Bykowski, "brewcity77"

Junior's anticipation was also wrong quite a bit, which led to his turnovers. Junior was a worse shooter his senior year and after 21 games I think we can call that statistically significant. Derrick and Junior were at the same time similar and opposite. Both shot poorly, Derrick was a much better defender, Junior was a better distributor, Derrick was better at protecting the ball, Junior scored more. At the end of the day they were both significantly flawed. Neither would have turned either of the past two teams into tourney teams.

In the past decade, I'd rank them Diener, James, Acker, Derrick, Junior, Buycks. The only one that really excites me of those names is the first. Watching Derrick's improvement this year, I'm encouraged with what this staff can do with Duane and other guards in the coming years. We simply don't have the level of talent on these past two teams we did in years past. That's neither Junior's not Derrick's fault, but acting like one of them would have been a panacea and the other not is just ridiculous when you look at their actual body of work.

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Other than bringing the ball when there is no pressure and getting the ball and dribbling with 15 seconds onthe clock looking for Carlino, Derrick has been far more of a forward this year.

I am absolutely sick about the disrespect Dominic James is getting in some of these posts. To say he is just barely better than Derrick Wilson is a travesty. Go back and watch some old games. James put pressure on the defense, could create a shot for himself or others, thread the needle with a pass, push in transition, took care of the ball, and was a sensational defender his senior year. Crean made the mistake of trying to make James a 2G his sophomore year but when James was a senior he could play his true role of PG with McNeal, Matthews and Hayward doing the scoring.

Imagine if James could have played his career with a big guy like Davante Gardner instead of Dwight Burke. He would have made a serious run at Tony Miller's assist total just by having a big guy that could catch and finish.

Agree 100%. DJ was initially a 2-guard playing the point because we had no one else to play point. How did he do in that role? Well, all he did was earn Big East Rookie of the Year.

By his senior year, he had rebranded himself into a true point guard. He could still score when we needed him to, but he embraced his role of setting up Jerel, Wesley, and Lazar.

Plus, as you said, he was an absolute lock-down defender by his senior year, probably the best perimeter defender since Tony Miller, and he may have been even better than TM.

To put Derrick ahead of DJ on a list of MU points guards since 2000 goes beyond the ridiculous - far beyond.

Put it this way - put DJ on last year's team or this year's team instead of Derrick. Would we have been/be better or worse? I rest my case in support of your case.

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Originally Posted by WarriorNich

I am absolutely sick about the disrespect Dominic James is getting in some of these posts. To say he is just barely better than Derrick Wilson is a travesty. Go back and watch some old games. James put pressure on the defense, could create a shot for himself or others, thread the needle with a pass, push in transition, took care of the ball, and was a sensational defender his senior year. Crean made the mistake of trying to make James a 2G his sophomore year but when James was a senior he could play his true role of PG with McNeal, Matthews and Hayward doing the scoring.

Imagine if James could have played his career with a big guy like Davante Gardner instead of Dwight Burke. He would have made a serious run at Tony Miller's assist total just by having a big guy that could catch and finish.

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It is ridiculous to even consider Derrick in the same sentence with DJ. In many respects, Derrick is an exemplary BB player. Unfortunately, playmaking, court vision and scoring/FT-shooting are not among his strengths. Rather important items for the PG position. Derrick is a good BB player, just is not a high level PG. DJ was an elite level PG and MU would have had a far better finish in his senior season if he had not had the Lisfranc fracture. I think a BE championship and an Elite 8 or Final 4 run were definite possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Phantom Warrior

To put Derrick ahead of DJ on a list of MU points guards since 2000 goes beyond the ridiculous - far beyond.

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Out of curiosity, who did that? Maybe I missed another list but I had James second behind Diener in the past decade. I would put Derrick ahead of Junior, but that's a different discussion.

The problem was Buzz didn't value the PG position enough. He chased off Acker briefly and tried to do the same to Cooby before realizing we might need those guys. Imagine how bad that year would have been without those two. Then he plugged Dwight into the role. All credit to him for making the NBA but let's be honest, that was way more about his play in France than anything he did at Marquette. After that, Junior and Derrick, both poor shooters and massively limited skill sets. And both had Buzz's unwavering loyalty.

Meanwhile, he passed on Kris Dunn (who said he wanted to come here) while pursuing Gabe York. Instead of focusing on top PGs he took fliers on guys like Reggie Smith, Derrick Wilson, and John Dawson. Duane may pan out, but would we have had any shot had he not been in our backyard?

Watching Derrick and Duane improve this year gives me hope for the future. This staff does seem to know how to with with guards. Hopefully they can have continued success with Duane, Nick, Cheatham, and whoever else they get at the position. Buzz preferred to recruit switchables over true guards and while that got us some tourney success it never got us to the summit and had us going the wrong way the past two years.

I really hope in the next decade, we are favorably comparing our point guards to Dom and Diener rather than debating Junior and Derrick.

Phantom, I personally never saw Davante "work his ass off". EVER.