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I know it's going to be nearly impossible, but if it happens I'd like to see it at 4th and Wisconsin, over the space occupied by the surface lot, the parking garage and the Boston Store/lofts at the west end of the Grand Ave.
It would be a huge boon for the future of the area.
Hey! We havd a winner!
The Grand Ave is a joke. A brand new arena would be great in that spot and benefit Marquette as well in that location.
It can be done in that loaction if they are willing to get rid of Boston Store and the Boston Lofts apartments. Boston Store leases and is not successful so that is easy. The one problem could be the hotel that takes up space on Michigan ave. Not sure how much space would be needed.
I think if that is not the spot, the arena spot will be the likely candidate. I know that doesn't excite the UWM fans.
I get the pull of 4th and Kilbourn. Kind of. But answer these:
1. Where do all these teams play for two years? The north end of the convention center all the way to the southern tip of the Bradley Center is not tall enough for the construction site. If it were just for the new Bucks arena, they could maybe squeeze it on that space. But you have all the construction equipment and space needed for fire code to make that happen.
2. Is it really worth it to knock down all three facilities so we can get the Bucks/MU/Admirals...ONE BLOCK CLOSER to downtown? If someone starts walking from the corner of 4th and Wisconsin north, 4th and Kilbourn really isn't much better than 4th and State.
I get that the Theater has lost money through bad operating, but that's not a reason to take down both buildings. The Arena gets plenty of use and is the only facility larger than 5,000 and smaller than the BC, so it has uses for acts that aren't big enough to fill a full basketball arena. I'm just having a hard time believing that three buildings have to be taken down for one.
It's not even a "tradition" thing. The Bucks have played in the BC longer than they played in the Arena.
Say it out loud: UWM plays downtown. Given the fringish fanbase, that concept makes no sense to begin with. As much as you are hanging on to the idea, it's better in the long run if UWM finds or better yet is forced to find an alternative solution. Business 101. The students have said as much for YEARS. Time to get on board with reality, Jimmy Lemke.
It's remarkable how condescending you are considering how ill-informed you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbovetheRim
Even if we move past the fact that Milwaukee Athletics pays rent just like Marquette and absolutely holds a seat at the table in the discussion just like Marquette, the fact of the matter is Milwaukee has proven very recently that the alternative solution absolutely does not work.
In the 2010-11 and 2011-12 seasons, Milwaukee averaged over 4,000 fans. The Klotsche Center on campus, the only alternative available to Milwaukee, is not a viable option for the program. We proved that in the 2012-13 season, when Andy Geiger - who was a big name but largely ignorant when it comes to running a mid-major - moved the team to the Klotsche Center. Attendance dipped considerably, not because of the bad team (people had bought most tickets before the season went sour), but because of the venue. I sat in the KC all day when they had an open house for season ticket holders, watching as fan after fan came in, got pissed off, and either sucked it up or declined to buy tickets.
What came to be was an 'arena' that was half-full for most of the season, only selling well when the select rival came to town. The Green Bay game, at 3,482, was the biggest home attendance of the year - several hundred more bodies than the seats fill. So was it great that the Klotsche was packed for that game? Sure, but what you need to realize is that game featured 600 less fans than we had averaged the previous two seasons at the Arena.
Not only do some fans get locked out of the Klotsche Center for games, for many other games they choose not to show up at all. We're not in the business of turning away any fans, as you love to jump to point out we have a "fringish fanbase." So, that dictates that we have to be available to the largest population possible. That means that we have to play in the best home possible, which is the Panther Arena downtown. Is it a drag that people won't come down to campus because it's far and the arena is garbage? Absolutely. But Milwaukee can't expect every fan to be Jimmy Lemke, who would come watch the team play in a middle school gym. You have to cater to everybody to reach the most amount of people you can and do what you can to get it to snowball from there.
I think we can all agree that Marquette is in a great place when it comes to ranking 350+ Division I basketball programs. As far as men's basketball is concerned, the Golden Eagles are probably a top 25 program - and that may be an underestimation. But being a fan of such a team, you only see mid-majors and low-majors - which I doubt you even think to separate - when they come to the Bradley Center. Which is fine. Being a fan of a team like that is great: you get to go to the tournament frequently, you get to play fun teams on the schedule every year at home, and you are able to find your team on television and cool clothes on the racks everywhere. So, to a point, you're ignorant of how life is on the other side of the tracks. Which is fine, but renders you wholly unqualified to say what is or is not better for the Milwaukee Panthers in the long run or the short run or the medium run.
You may not like it, but we pay our lease, and now our name is on the building. So yes, the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee has a seat at the table. Does that mean that the university is going to block the Arena's demolition? I'm sure the university, as well as the Wisconsin Center District, will do everything they can to ensure the new arena - if it is built - be constructed elsewhere. Whether that's the Park East Corridor, the current Bradley Center space, the 4th and Wisconsin space, or down by Potowatomi, no one knows right now. Obviously the Arena/Theater space is a possibility, but the question of where all these teams will play precludes that from being the smartest option. Just as the fact that the 4th and Wisconsin space is probably too small, the Arena/Theater space is too small for the new arena - which needs to be 750,000 square feet, preferably larger, so we don't find ourselves having this same discussion in 25 years. That's at least 50% larger than the Bradley Center. Construction on that space would be a tight fit, with no space for construction equipment, and would halt the possibility of the convention center expanding, something that is more important for that surface lot space north of the convention center. It also gets rid of that "vista" experience people talk about, since the fans wouldn't be entering at 4th and Kilbourn but 4th street between Wells and Kilbourn, or at the north end of the building...at 4th and State.
Which brings us to the bare truth. That what we talk about when we talk about bulldozing the Arena is this:
- Added costs: paying off the Theater's remodeling loan, some $40 million. Cost of bulldozing both the Arena and the Theater to make space.
- Shutting down Kilbourn between 4th and 6th streets, where the freeway exits. Likely shutting down State street between 4th and 6th street.
- Displacing the Milwaukee Panthers, Milwaukee Wave, Brew City Bruisers, as well as traveling events that wouldn't have a place with only one downtown arena - Disney on Ice, Marvel Universe Live, the Tripoli Shrine Circus, Disney Junior Live, and all the musical acts that are way too big for 4,000 seats at the Al McGuire Center (the next biggest venue in the city if the Arena/Theater/BC are all demolished)
- Displacing the Bucks, Marquette and Admirals for two seasons if the new facility cannot be built on the Arena/Theater space alone.
- Closing the door on possible convention center expansion to the north, something that is generally agreed upon as needing to happen if the convention center is to be big enough for the biggest conventions
All of this - all of it - is so we can build a brand new Bucks arena to be one block south of where they currently play. And let's not mince words - even though Marquette would play in the new arena and contribute to its construction, the need for it to be built comes entirely from the Milwaukee Bucks. If the Bucks left town, Marquette and the Admirals would happily gobble up better dates the Bucks had taken and we wouldn't be talking about a new arena for the next 20 years at least.
I also don't buy this "traditional home" ******** Uihlein is spitting. If the history of the Bucks and Marquette at 4th and Kilbourn is so very important to them, then how is demolishing that building serving that history? It still stands today. And it should continue to stand for another 40 years. It's not Wrigley Field, it's not crumbling at the seams. It's a perfectly adequate facility.
Admit the truth. What you find really distasteful about the Arena standing and the Bradley Center being taken down is that you would have to walk into this building for two years while your new home is being built:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swE9jroebCs
Which is what we come to. For Marquette fans, what you have to be honest with yourselves about is this: is it about getting the arena one block closer to Wisconsin Avenue, or is it about ******* over the Milwaukee Panthers? It's perfectly okay to admit that.
In any case, the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee is the only tenant in the discussion that is a public entity. Public funds are, in all likelihood, going to be used to get this new Bucks arena done. If that happens, and the Milwaukee Panthers are displaced, then their future home has to be involved. Does that mean a second, smaller arena attached to the new building? Does it mean a new facility closer to campus, on North Avenue or at the east end of the Park East corridor? Does that mean razing the Klotsche Center and replacing it with a new facility on the same space? Whatever that entails, the future home of the Milwaukee Panthers, Milwaukee Wave and all those other acts that currently use the UW-Milwaukee Panther Arena needs to be accounted for.
I think Jimmy is right. As much as some fans wish UWM would just go away, we're still here.
I think the best thing for UWM would be some type of on capus facility, or very near campus facility. Of course that costs money, but it would really help improve the facilities, which is obvious, but would also bring more of a campus identity. Not sure how much they are thinking of putting into new practice facility, or how much it would cost, but I thought there was some money earmarked for such a project.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-waukee
Personally, I wish UWM would have gone the route of FCS football. That would have likely gotten them into a bigger conference like Missouri Valley for all sports.
On the topic of the Arena - having the article about how poor the Milwaukee Theater has performed will not help the cause to keep the Arena open.
The FCS Football route is not the way into the MVC - Loyola, a school which plays neither football or baseball, proved that last spring. Do I wish the Panthers played football? Sure. But I also know that in the landscape of mid-major college sports, those that have been elite are not saddled by playing scholarship football - Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, VCU.
The thing that holds UWM back, more than anything, is a university whose leadership does not understand that men's basketball is the catalyst for everything. Let me tell you, Mike Lovell learned a whole hell of a lot about what basketball does for a university when he made the move west of downtown.
I'd love to play near campus. On campus would be nice, but the amenities aren't around it - our fans are like Marquette fans, they go to Major Goolsby's and other sports bars/restaurants before and after games. They hated - absolutely hated - having to get in their car to do any of that. So near campus would have to happen. This was one of our alumni's interpretation of what that could be:
Link: Near-campus arena.
That's great. But it's also never gonna happen. Space isn't available. And even if it is, we don't have anywhere near the money to make it happen. If the Arena has to come down, I would demand the university be compensated to build a commensurate mid-major Division I facility on campus. Obviously demanding and getting are two different things, but we're the only public entity here. I would hope that all parties involved (save for Marquette) would understand the immense inconvenience they would be causing UWM and decide to help out.
I did talk to some other UWM ticket holders who also don't want on campus - like you said, they are more inclined to go to a downtown venue.
What happens if the arena does come down? If that is the determined site, construction will begin before the 2015-2016 season. Is there money for a bigger version of the Al Center?
A bigger version of the Al costs upwards of $40 million, and that's just the arena part. We don't have nearly the money to do it, and a study found we'd only be able to raise about $8 million. If that's true, that would suck.
Buying the Journal building, while people are bringing up something I never considered - the ingress into the ground for printing presses is very deep. So if that space were extended, it's entirely possible the new Bradley Center could be built with the same footprint or even smaller. Which could all get done on the Journal block, maybe closing down 3rd street as well during construction.