Dumb & Dumber....& Dumbest

I'm sure Kneel and the rest of the apologists will attack this post, but I don't give a crap. I've watched/followed MU hoops for 56 years, and I have seen 10 - 12 maybe 15 - 20 games in which MU has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. But at crucial junctures in tonight's game, I witnessed some of the dumbest basketball I've seen over the years.

1. With 10 seconds left in regulation and the score tied, Derrick WALKED THE BALL UP THE COURT! He didn't push the ball up the court to give us an extra few seconds to either execute a play, or, Heaven Forbid, get an offensive rebound. I watched the clock tick down...six...five...four... and there was still no sense of urgency. We end up with a 23-24 footer with no chance for an offensive put back. I'm sorry, but that was just plain DUMB! Was it Buzz's call? "Hey, Derrick, walk it up"? I just can't imagine that, but who knows? If not, then it's on Derrick, and if so, what the hell was he thinking?

2. We have the lead with nine seconds left in the second overtime and get the ball into Jake. What does Jake do? Ultimately he bends over at the waist and holds the ball waist high with both hands. Obviously, he was waiting/hoping to get fouled. I realize I only coach seventh/eighth grade girls, but even I know enough to teach them to never bend over and hold the ball waist high when pressured by a defender, let alone two defenders. You use your pivot foot to move, and you keep the ball moving. Make them move with you. That's the stuff of Basketball 101. And what do you teach your players to do if an opponent bends over at the waist with both hands on the ball? Grab the ball and tie them up. What Jake did is even DUMBER than Derrick's walk-the-ball-up-the-court routine at the end of regulation.

3. Now we get to Derrick's foul. Frickin' game is on the line with something like seven, eight, nine seconds left, and the opponent has the ball with double bonus. We're talking about one of the best free throw shooting teams in the country. What do you absolutely NOT want to do? Foul. And if that's not bad enough, he fouled one of the best free throw shooters in the country. He fouled the second leading scorer in the conference. On top of that, he had virtually no chance for the steal in the first place. In my mind, this was the DUMBEST of the three plays.

Until tonight, the individual play that has stood out in my mind as the dumbest I've ever seen by an MU player was Amoroso's turn-and-push foul on an Arizona free throw near the end of the Arizona game. We had that game pretty much won. I still can't imagine what he was thinking.

But these three tonight will also stick with me for a long time, not only because they killed our already minuscule chances for an NCAA bid, but also because all three were in one game. Watching each one, I just shook my head in astonishment.

I've seen MU teams shoot themselves in the foot before, but tonight they shot themselves in both feet and a kneecap for good measure.

Now, Kneel et al, you can start defending both players and question my fanhood. But if you don't agree that all three plays were really dumb, then I question your objectivity.

Summed up perfectly. Wanted Mayo to receive the inbounds pass. He is great at breaking double teams with an aggressive/strong dribble, throwing his head back and getting the ref to call a foul. Jake's weakness is dribbling, hurt us in that situation.

I agree Phantom and commented on each of those when they happened in the game thread. Calling the play at the end of the first OT when Derrick walked the ball up dumb is being kind. It left only one option. A long 3. He has played horribly on the defensive side at the end of game scenarios. I don't know which is worse, how he played against Nova and De Paul on defense at the end of the game, or last night on offense. Frustrating to watch a D1 Junior make mental mistakes like that.

So an apologist is what, someone who can't acknowledge that college kids and their coach sometimes make dumb mistakes? Or at least doesn't write a rambling 1,000 word screed about it?

Thanks for the shoutout, and screw you, PW.

Just returning the favor as I believe it was you who called me out not long ago for making some critical comments about the level of certain individuals' production. You took some potshots at me for expressing my views because you did not agree with them.

Notice, by the way, I did not say Derrick or Jake were dumb players. I said they made some extremely dumb plays.

Please also notice that I never, and I mean never, have written "Screw you" in response to any individual's posts or perspectives. By the way, if it was not you, then I do apologize, but I'm about 95% certain it was.

As for the terms "apologist," I do believe that you go out of your way to - for lack of a better word - defend some players against any critical comments.

And for the record, my definition of an "apologist" is someone who continually defends or justifies something - in terms of MU hoops this year that would be playing time for certain individuals. Here is dictionary definition of an "apologist," though I confess I used the term in reference to those who have been apologists for Jake and Derrick throughout the season.

"apologist n : a person who argues to defend or justify some policy or institution;"

Here's another one from a different source:

"a person who writes or speaks in defense or justification of a doctrine, faith, action, etc."

I used this term because that is my perception of your point of view - a consistent defense or justification of Buzz giving Jake and Derrick, in particular, not just significant playing time, but more playing time than any other players on the team. Personally, I still think the term fits.

I anticipated that you would attack my position relative to the original post in this thread because that is what you have done in the past. Sorry that you took that so personally as to write "Screw you."

I do take offense, though not on a personal level, of the adjective "rambling." I thought I stated my thoughts on the three plays at least reasonably coherently, but then again it was past midnight.

Oh, one last thing (at the risk of this post being labeled "rambling" once again - though it probably is to some extent) I, too, have been, and still am, an "apologist," only my record of being one relates to my defense of Deonte, JJ, and Dawson. I confess that when I used the term in the original post, it referred to those who have been apologists for Jake and Derrick throughout the season.

They did make dumb plays. Not sure they are any dumber than Mayo fouling Fortune twice, or all but handing the ball to Cotton for that steal, or at the other end, Fortune fouling Mayo on the three. There was dumb on both ends tonight. There was also a lot of fight back in this team. They showed a lot of toughness and showed why they deserve to have us cheering for them, despite the dumb plays.

By and large, I think Derrick and Jake have shown themselves to be a lot better than most of the keyboard jockeys like to give them credit for. Then they have a bad game and everyone piles on in droves, shouting "I told you so" from the mountains. When they do well, it's a backhanded compliment at best, when they do poor, people can't start shoveling turds fast enough.

Next year we'll miss Jamil and Gardner, I'm sure that's true, but we'll also miss Otule and Jake. And Derrick will still be getting a ton of minutes. On this one, PW, I don't fault you at all. At least you went after the individual play rather than the players. I'm not sure these were necessarily the worst transgressions on the night, simply because there were a ton of transgressions. Last night just felt unwinnable. No matter what we did right, it turned right around on us. Either a miracle shot by Providence or a dumb decision on our end or a combination of the two. It happens. Probably ended our season, unless we win the BET. Today is still another day.

Sums it up well. I also remember everyone saying how great this team looked in the Pro AM. These guys are not good. Can we still blame Larry Williams maybe for this debacle?

Not Buzz's best season.

I don't even want to watch the NCAA's now as it's going to be painful watching UW walk to a Final Four. I wish Buzz would value his roster more like Bo Ryan did and recruit kids who can play basketball and stay for 4 years. It's a huge difference and allows consistency.

I'm curious, how does Buzz value his roster less than Bo? Yes, Vander went pro, but Bo recruited him pretty hard to. Hard enough to get a commitment out of him. And sure, guys that didn't pan out here transferred, but how is Jamail Jones any different from Ian Markolf? How is Jameel McKay any different from Jarrod Uthoff? You give a guy a scholarship, you hope they pan out. If they don't, they leave, sometimes even when you don't want or expect them to.

Davante Gardner and Jamil Wilson stayed for 4 years. Otule stayed for 6. It looks like Derrick, Juan, and Mayo will all end up staying for four, and I'd be surprised to see Taylor leave any time soon. Are you assuming all the freshmen are either transferring or declaring early?

Can't really blame D. Wilson for walking up the ball. MU, did have a timeout left. MU didn't want to take the ball to the hoop, since PC was blocking many shots. Open look at the top of the key for your hot player in Mayo. I think MU got the shot they wanted.

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Originally Posted by MU/Panther

Can't really blame D. Wilson for walking up the ball. MU, did have a timeout left. MU didn't want to take the ball to the hoop, since PC was blocking many shots. Open look at the top of the key for your hot player in Mayo. I think MU got the shot they wanted.

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Yes you can, you want time for an offensive rebound. If you don't get the rebound, you can still foul and maybe have a 1.5 - 2 seconds left for another possession. You need a sense of urgency there.

Buzz's model is to always be recruiting and to expect transfers. Bo's model is to get players to buy in and to stay for 4 or 5 years. Both can work. But Buzz's model is going to lead to some of the roster chaos we have seen from year to year. And to put that much time into a kid from when the recruiting process starts to only have them for one year or two years can be a waste.


And yes, I expect multiple transfers this off-season.

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Originally Posted by mufansince72

Yes you can, you want time for an offensive rebound. If you don't get the rebound, you can still foul and maybe have a 1.5 - 2 seconds left for another possession. You need a sense of urgency there.

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Score was tied right? I've got no problem playing for one shot if the score is tied.

And yet you ignore all the great plays that actually put us in the position to be in it at the end. The team hit some clutch shots to come back, played some great D to get back in the game. To ignore what they did well and just slam kids is, well, certainly not a real fan.
You're disappointed? I bet not nearly as disappointed as the players.
I remember after the Disney tourney in Orlando where we gave up a decent lead, running out of gas. I was disappointed. We were hanging around chatting after the game. Lazar came back out. As he walked back toward the locker, he destroyed a folding chair with one stomp. They pour their heart and soul out for this team.
You sit back in your chair and pontificate and criticize.

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Originally Posted by MU/Panther

Can't really blame D. Wilson for walking up the ball. MU, did have a timeout left. MU didn't want to take the ball to the hoop, since PC was blocking many shots. Open look at the top of the key for your hot player in Mayo. I think MU got the shot they wanted.

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They got an NBA range 3 point shot. Sorry but they can get that anytime.

If you notice Jamil got the rebound with a decent shot at knocking down a jumper, but the clock ran out. No other point guard would walk the ball up during that situation.

Look, I have been as big a Derrick booster as most. But that game was terrible. I really like what I see from John Dawson, and I really hope that he sticks around and develops because I think he could be the starter for the next three years.

Buzz was waving at him to speed it up so he could call time out at the hash mark. But DW took so long Buzz waved it off. DW was to me doing what they practiced in those situations as I have seen it before: take your time and take the last shot with little time left--a one timer. No TO to allow for PC to set up a defense. Mixed signals there IMO.

I was more irritated with Buzz at the end of the 1st half. Not on Jake's shot as it was well scripted but the full court drive where MU had a foul to give. The bench keeps track of paint touches, how about the bonus situation too?

End of the day it was a great college game. The boys plays hard and gave it their all. Maybe not the smartest but repped MU well. Wearing my MU hat today with pride.

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Originally Posted by BLT

Buzz was waving at him to speed it up so he could call time out at the hash mark. But DW took so long Buzz waved it off. DW was to me doing what they practiced in those situations as I have seen it before: take your time and take the last shot with little time left--a one timer. No TO to allow for PC to set up a defense. Mixed signals there IMO.

I was more irritated with Buzz at the end of the 1st half. Not on Jake's shot as it was well scripted but the full court drive where MU had a foul to give. The bench keeps track of paint touches, how about the bonus situation too?

End of the day it was a great college game. The boys plays hard and gave it their all. Maybe not the smartest but rep

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Over on Scoop, the consensus was the Mayo did try to foul him, but didn't do it hard enough to get a call.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

Over on Scoop, the consensus was the Mayo did try to foul him, but didn't do it hard enough to get a call.

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Could be, i didn't see Todd do that. Buzz teaches them to reach in a rebound like that. Jae was the master of stealing or slowing the other player down. I am talking about the end of period communication from bench to floor, though. Easy to nitpick but I think it was better when Layer was here.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

They got an NBA range 3 point shot. Sorry but they can get that anytime.

If you notice Jamil got the rebound with a decent shot at knocking down a jumper, but the clock ran out. No other point guard would walk the ball up during that situation.

Look, I have been as big a Derrick booster as most. But that game was terrible. I really like what I see from John Dawson, and I really hope that he sticks around and develops because I think he could be the starter for the next three years.

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You see so many teams at the end take long jumpers at the end. Correct, doesn't make it correct.

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Originally Posted by Halo

Buzz's model is to always be recruiting and to expect transfers. Bo's model is to get players to buy in and to stay for 4 or 5 years. Both can work. But Buzz's model is going to lead to some of the roster chaos we have seen from year to year. And to put that much time into a kid from when the recruiting process starts to only have them for one year or two years can be a waste.


And yes, I expect multiple transfers this off-season.

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There's differences in the philosophy, Buzz expects transfers because of how hard he works the guys. But it goes both ways. We also get transfers in like Lockett and Fischer.

The big difference I feel is upside. Bo's approach will lead to more consistent results but a lower ceiling. Buzz's has more risk potential but a higher ceiling.

Under Bo, UW finishes top four in the league every year, usually hangs out around the top-10, and struggles to beat teams with actual talent once March starts. One E8 in what, 13 or 14 years, and needed to beat all double digit seeds to get there?

Buzz's teams may not have the consistent league finishes but they are built far better for March. You need NBA talent to win in March. We've generally had that. But I don't think Buzz doesn't count on 4-year players. He just doesn't count on everyone being 4-year players, whether due to transfers or early entrants. If there's any failing this year, it's that he counted too much on Blue being a four-year player.

Kneel is a little shy after last night's game (I haven't even been called a name yet!), so allow me to offer some of his sentiments shared in another thread:

"Sometimes stuff happens...sometimes players leave...or they don't improve...or we miss a recruit...and it's just bad luck. And really no one is to blame."

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

Kneel is a little shy after last night's game (I haven't even been called a name yet!), so allow me to offer some of his sentiments shared in another thread:

"Sometimes stuff happens...sometimes players leave...or they don't improve...or we miss a recruit...and it's just bad luck. And really no one is to blame."

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Sometimes.

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Originally Posted by kneelb4zerg

Sometimes.

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how's your autobiography "How to Be the Best Fan" going btw? I was hoping you'd have it out by Saturday for a signing at OGBH before the game.

Would be the highlight of my season, truly.

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

how's your autobiography "How to Be the Best Fan" going btw? I was hoping you'd have it out by Saturday for a signing at OGBH before the game.

Would be the highlight of my season, truly.

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LOL. I'm not a better fan than you. Just smarter.

bleed, why do you need to troll another topic in here?

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Originally Posted by brewcity77

bleed, why do you need to troll another topic in here?

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because the guy has trolled me everywhere, all year?

That discussion is going on over there still though. Why not carry it on there? Because you have nothing to contribute to the actual topic at hand? If that's the case, I'm flabbergasted.

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Originally Posted by MU/Panther

Can't really blame D. Wilson for walking up the ball. MU, did have a timeout left. MU didn't want to take the ball to the hoop, since PC was blocking many shots. Open look at the top of the key for your hot player in Mayo. I think MU got the shot they wanted.

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There were 11 second left and the game was tied. We were in the double bonus. You show a sense of urgency, get it to Mayo with time to operate, force the action, and get an open shot or get to the line. Or at least make an aggressive attempt to score. Walking up the court unguarded like you're on a Sunday stroll is option Z in that situation.

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Originally Posted by 2013UnleashTheBeast

There were 11 second left and the game was tied. We were in the double bonus. You show a sense of urgency, get it to Mayo with time to operate, force the action, and get an open shot or get to the line. Or at least make an aggressive attempt to score. Walking up the court unguarded like you're on a Sunday stroll is option Z in that situation.

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I'm assuming that MU/Panther was pulling our leg...at least I hope so.