How the conference lines up (long semi-rant)

It was discussed on the show tonight how good the current Big East is, and how good it will be in the future. I think we all know that it is not as good as it was last year. Zach made the argument that top to bottom, it is stronger than the old Big East. I disagreed, but not that strongly. Upon further consideration, I disagree much more. Looking at the rankings and the records, the drop-off has not been quite as having eight classic Corvettes fall into a thirty-foot sinkhole, but it is more than stepping off a curb. How about a fall from a second story window that might or might not break your ankle?

Here's what we lost or left behind: Syracuse, currently ranked #1 in the country, and coming off a Final Four. Louisville, ranked 8-13, and the defending national champion. Cincinnati, ranked 10-11 and leading the American. Pitt, ranked 23-25. UConn, ranked right around Pitt, bouncing back from a disappointing season, and apparently tournament bound. Notre Dame has been nothing special this year, and as usual, Rutgers and South Florida suck.

Here's what we picked up. #17-18 Creighton. Two other guys. Despite an influx of mediocre teams and the fact that it is going to take a hit next year, the American is probably a better conference this year. Sure, they have added some dogs, but they have also added Memphis and SMU, which are currently ranked. Temple has been terrible, but historically has been pretty good. And even USF made the tournament in the last year or two. They will lose Louisville, but they will also lose Rutgers, and will pick up Tulsa, which has historically been pretty good.

I think in the future, the Big East has a good chance to be the stronger conference, but right now, it is no sure thing. One of the points that Zach made was that the teams are much closer together in the current Big East than in the previous configuration. Usually, in the eight years we were members, there were a number of great teams, some pretty good ones, and a few bottom-feeders. Here is the problem. We brought most of the bottom-feeders with us. DePaul is the most obvious, but most years, the teams that would fight it out with DePaul for the chance to miss the Big East tournament included Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall. I am not all doom and gloom here. A bunch of the teams in the current BE are better than their record, including Marquette. And aside from DePaul, none of them are truly Rutgers- or USF-quality bad. Zach had a point that the top and the bottom of the conference are closer than they used to be. Even DePaul was not terrible until Melvin left. But the conference is nowhere near as good as it used to be.

Teams are going to go up and down. We are proving it this year. In the time we were in the Big East, Georgetown went to the NIT a time or two, then went to the Final Four. There were a couple seasons when UConn was a team we expected to beat, one year in particular when they were supposed to be pretty good but weren't, and a couple others when they were one of the best in the country for most of the year or won the national championship. Louisville was really good, except for one year when they were really bad. But the sheer number of great teams in the conference meant that there were always going to be a bunch of them ranked, and usually one or two in the top five. The teams that have come in are quality teams. They might have fared all right in the former Big East. I think in most seasons, Creighton would have given the big boys a run for their money. I am not sure about Xavier, but I know one year they were a three seed. I think Butler would have had a tougher time, even in the years they made the championship game. The first year they did that, they actually finished behind UWM in the Horizon League.

In the future, the conference is going to have to step it up. Of course, every year a couple teams are going to lose a bunch more conference games than they win. Somebody is going to have a disappointing season. That is why I am not too concerned that we and Georgetown are choosing to have ours this year. We have both been consistently good. But for the conference to be considered among the best, the overall quality has to improve. Seton Hall and St. John's have to pick it up a notch, and actually be as good as their talent suggests they can be. Providence and Xavier have to improve. It is hard to judge Butler due to all the changes they have gone through in recent years. And DePaul.... well, is DePaul. I think the administrators of the various universities know that, and they are willing to pour some resources in to make it happen. But it is not automatic. Several of these teams have had a good year or two, followed by five or six or, in Seton Hall's case, eight bad ones. It is no easy thing.

That is why the list of expansion candidate is not long. I know lots of people like ten teams. I do too, but I think money talks, and there is going to be pressure to expand. Like I said on the show tonight, I think the likely candidates are Saint Louis and..... The problem is, there is no obvious candidate for the and.... It would probably be someone from the A-10. But all the likely candidates have drawbacks. VCU is huge and public. I think UMass is not even on the radar, because of football. La Salle, St. Joes, and Richmond are all private and have tradition and have had some success, though perhaps not on the level the conference would like, and one wonders if Villanova wants to share a market with the first two or Georgetown with the third. Dayton has been discussed at length, and I will not mention it further, lest I give someone a coronary. Outside of the A-10, I do not see any really obvious candidates. It seems what would be required is to find a private school with an established team, lots of money, and a credible commitment to step it up, sort of like what Loyola has done in getting into the MVC. But that means taking a team that is not all that great and hoping the bringing them into the conference is enough to improve them. Sometimes that works. It worked for UConn in the original formation of the Big East, but it took a while. Sometimes it doesn't. Penn State has been in the Big Ten for years, and still isn't any better than mediocre. And I am convinced that Rutgers is going to suck wherever they play.

Thoughts? How to see to it that the conference flourishes? Who to invite if/when the conference expands?

The league is missing some star power. G'town and MU a disappointment this year. No one will agree I know, but I would take SLU and the UConn. SLU is committed and is starting to have sustained success. UConn is a football school I know, but they bring some more credibility to the league for hoops. I know it won't happen as they are likely getting into the ACC, poor fit with football, etc. But I just feel the league needs one more top tier program that has national respect to get more eyes on the league and for recruits.

The flip side is UConn likely would have no desire to come either any way due to football and needing a place to park it.

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Originally Posted by unclejohn

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Who to invite if/when the conference expands?

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Hasn't this been discussed ad nauseam over the past year?

Of course the conference isn't as good as it used to be but even in a down year for two of the flagship teams the conference is third or fourth best depending on which metric you use. Pretty sure it can consistently be at that level and probably better given how well the conference has been recruiting.

I like having 10 teams from a scheduling perspective bc every year you get two shots at everybody. Sometimes with the unbalanced schedule in the BE you'd get stuck playing USF or Rutgers twice but only get Syracuse and Louisville once.

Also I think the OP gives short shrift to Xavier. Elite 8 in 2004 and 2008. S16 in 09, 10 and 12. Basically a perennial tournament team over the last 15 years or so. Clearly one of the elite programs in the country with an institutional dedication to hoops similar to ours.

I believe that the deal the conference signed with Fox was a no brainer and will be very good for everybody in the long run. Financially, it puts these schools at a level they have never been at. Given time, these added resources are going to be hugely beneficial to all of the programs.

All that being said, you really had to be kidding yourself if you didn't think we were going to take a step back from a PR standpoint in the short run. Like it or not, ESPN dictates college basketball. They committed to it in their infancy when no other network thought it was worth it and they have grown into the premier authority for all things college basketball whether they deserve that title or not. We had to understand that our relevancy and place in the college basketball landscape were going to be downgraded when we left that network. If this league had signed a deal with ESPN it would be universally hailed as wildly successful. There is no metric that does not rate us as a top 4 conference. Competitively, it is one of the most entertaining conferences to follow. Every night is a grind. The round robin format is starting to have its desired effect. The games are getting prickly. Familiarity breeds contempt. Contempt sells tickets and attracts viewers. The problem is that the main voice of college basketball is not trumpeting any of these things. The main voice is virtually ignoring us, so the perception is that we are part of something less than ideal.

It just needs time and heat. The more these schools start to hate each other the more entertaining the games will be. The problem with college basketball over the last 5 years is that it is starting to lose some of that heat. Rivalries have been diminished by realignment, bloated conferences and unbalanced scheduling. The Big East has a chance to get some of that back. I really believe that in the long run are current format has huge potential. We need some flashpoints. That mutual respect that all the teams have for each other right now has to go away. We need some schools to step into the villain role that Georgetown embraced in the early years of the Big East. We need some altercations on Semi-Final night at the Garden. Incidents that get the average college basketball fan talking about it and tuning in to see what happens next. I believe that all of these things will happen over time. In the mean time, we all need to keep the recruiting up, so when the viewers do turn in, they like what they see. It is a process and no matter how much we want it to, it won't happen over night. I don't believe diluting the product so that we are the same as everyone else is the answer.

I know the NBE isn't as good as the OBE. But I like it. I really do. I like the full round robin, and I like the fact that we are playing schools similar to Marquette. And yeah there are a group of people that are going to label it "mid-major" because it has a bunch of schools that don't offer football, but I don't care about that. I care about their performance on the court and so far that has been fine.

Unless it comes with increased resources per school, I do not want expansion. But if the numbers work, I think St. Louis and Dayton are the best options. However if the east coast schools don't want two midwestern schools, there really isn't a great eastern alternative.

Perhaps an 11 team conference with a 20 game conference season would work. Each team would have two "byes"...one in the middle of the week and one on a weekend.

No way is the conference as good as the Old Big East. I don't think any conference is as good as the Old Big East. There are six teams in the top 25 from the Old Big East, and the New Big East has ten total teams. Six place in the new Big East is no where near the top 25 right now.

In addition to having six teams in the top 25, the old Big East has the current #1 team in the country in Syracuse.

The bottom teams are basically the same. The bottom three teams in the New Big East are Seton Hall, Butler and DePaul, bottom three in the Old Big East were Seton Hall, South Florida, and DePaul. If South Florida and Butler are a wash, the bottom three are the same as last year.

Of course most would prefer being in the Old Big East, but that isn't possible. I am excited about the new conference, and am a big fan of the round robin schedule. Hopefully we can keep the round robin format for as long as possible, even if adding one team as Sultan suggested.

No use crying over spilt milk. What we have now is probably the best we could wish for, especially given the Fox connection. Like Sultan's suggestion as it gives more decent RPI games while still having the round-robin schedule and bringing a bit more critical mass in terms of NCAA bids.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

I know the NBE isn't as good as the OBE. But I like it. I really do. I like the full round robin, and I like the fact that we are playing schools similar to Marquette. And yeah there are a group of people that are going to label it "mid-major" because it has a bunch of schools that don't offer football, but I don't care about that. I care about their performance on the court and so far that has been fine.

Unless it comes with increased resources per school, I do not want expansion. But if the numbers work, I think St. Louis and Dayton are the best options. However if the east coast schools don't want two midwestern schools, there really isn't a great eastern alternative.

Perhaps an 11 team conference with a 20 game conference season would work. Each team would have two "byes"...one in the middle of the week and one on a weekend.

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I agree. Regardless of how the current BE compares to the AAC, I'd rather be associated with the schools in our conference. Certain teams might be up or down in various years, but long term our current home is much better for establishing our identity/brand.

I'd rather stick with 10 also. A smaller, tight-knit community is what the identity of our conference schools is all about.

This year's Big East is looked at and talked about the Big East teams of the past. The old Big East is now American Conference. The New Big East is a new league that bought $$ the old name. To me it's apple versus grapes. I love the round robin schedule of the Big East. As long as every school in the Big East has a tough to solid non-conference to bring in games for home teams and FS1. This league will be fine!

What would obviously help is DePaul getting their sh*t together. While the new Big East doesn't have as many heavyweights at top as the old Big East, it's impressive how good the bottom teams are...minus DePaul. Butler, for a "bottom feeder" this year, is really a tough team to beat. It's not like they are South Florida, Temple, Auburn, Mississippi State, Washington State, etc.

Last night during the DePaul game, there was not one mention of the game from any of the multiple national college hoops writers on Twitter, and they were playing the #6 team. Obviously the game wasn't competetive, but DePaul is so irrelevent in hoops it's pathetic. And Ponsetto was getting plenty of camera time sitting behind the table right next to the bench in one of her loud ugly jackets. How in the hell does she still have a job? Their main sport is a joke and the arena is mostly empty. Most other AD's would have been out on their ass a long time ago. IF they push her out and bring in a strong AD to overhaul how they operate, they can start to right the ship.

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Originally Posted by MUBasketball

What would obviously help is DePaul getting their sh*t together. While the new Big East doesn't have as many heavyweights at top as the old Big East, it's impressive how good the bottom teams are...minus DePaul. Butler, for a "bottom feeder" this year, is really a tough team to beat. It's not like they are South Florida, Temple, Auburn, Mississippi State, Washington State, etc.

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The original statement was the league is better this year top to bottom over last year. Not close. We all know the top teams aren't as good as last year.

The bottom teams are the same as in the old Big East. The bottom three teams last season were Seton Hall, South Florida and DePaul. The bottom three teams this year are Seton Hall, Butler, and DePaul.

Butler and South Florida have about the same record this year, so really the bottom teams haven't changed. You could say Seton Hall and DePaul may have improved, but I'm not sure they are really that impressive.

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Originally Posted by Goose85

The original statement was the league is better this year top to bottom over last year. Not close. We all know the top teams aren't as good as last year.

The bottom teams are the same as in the old Big East. The bottom three teams last season were Seton Hall, South Florida and DePaul. The bottom three teams this year are Seton Hall, Butler, and DePaul.

Butler and South Florida have about the same record this year, so really the bottom teams haven't changed. You could say Seton Hall and DePaul may have improved, but I'm not sure they are really that impressive.

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That's actually a good point.

However, I just don't look at Seton Hall and think they are a bad team. When fully healthy, they are pretty talented. So right now, they are considerably better than they were a year ago when they were decimated with injuries for most of the year. That's a pretty solid team Marquette beat on Tuesday night.

Don't get me wrong. I would not rather be in the AAC. It is a football conference with a bunch of teams scattered all over the place, and in order to keep going, they are adding teams like East Carolina and Tulane. But this year, it is probably stronger than the BE. I think one would have a hard time making the argument that the BE is currently a top 4 conference. Close, but not there. All of the Big five football conferences have more quality teams.

But it can be, and that is the plan. I am more interested in what the conference can do going forward. I do not want to go back to the old Big East anymore than I want to re-live last year. That is done. Time to move on. Now, where to, and how best to get there?

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Originally Posted by unclejohn

Don't get me wrong. I would not rather be in the AAC. It is a football conference with a bunch of teams scattered all over the place, and in order to keep going, they are adding teams like East Carolina and Tulane. But this year, it is probably stronger than the BE. I think one would have a hard time making the argument that the BE is currently a top 4 conference. Close, but not there. All of the Big five football conferences have more quality teams.

But it can be, and that is the plan. I am more interested in what the conference can do going forward. I do not want to go back to the old Big East anymore than I want to re-live last year. That is done. Time to move on. Now, where to, and how best to get there?

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The BE is in a good place right now, though injuries, etc. have played a role in lesser BB on-court success this season. BE teams are doing well in terms of recruiting for 2014, so there is a base for a successful league going forward. Successful recruiting and retaining good coaches will obviously be the significant factors going forward regardless of how many teams are in the BE. While I have been a proponent of expansion, perhaps it is best to go slow while the BE builds upon its new/revised brand. In the end, on-court success will dictate.

AAC is not even close to the Big East on the whole. A conference has more then five members, and I believe that the top five members of AAC are getting fat off of a bottom five that is a half-step above the Sun Belt. SMU did nothing of note out of the league, Cincy's lone non-conference win of note was over an overrated Pitt team in a peach basket game, and Louisville's resume is rather bereft. They now have five teams in the rankings because they have all killed the bottom five teams and evenly split the games amongst top teams, so you have lot of shiny records (which lack substance if you closely evaluate them). I think a lot of people writing these articles about how the good the AAC is will be in for a rude awakening come March, when these teams have to face quality opposition away from home.

Uncle John's initial post terribly dismissed an excellent Xavier program, one that has returned back to being an NCAA Tournament level team after one transition year thanks to numerous unlucky incidents (sound familiar). For an easy AAC comparison, they curbstomped Cincy on a neutral court. Prior to 2013, Xavier was an Elite 8 team in 2009, and made the Sweet 16 in 2008, 2010, and 2012.

Even in a downish season, Georgetown has wins over Michigan State, Kansas State, and VCU out of conference (all of them away from home). I actually think that they have a much better tournament resume then most bracketologists believe, and they have built on the big Michigan State win with three more consecutively in the league. I think they make the tournament as long as they split their final six games down the stretch.

Pomeroy has the Big East 3rd best...and the AAC 7th. Did any one watch the UCONN vs. South Florida game? USF is playing like a CYO team. UCF is 1-10 in conference. DePaul would be .500 in the AAC.

Saying the AAC is better than the Big East is ludicrous. They have 5 decent teams. And why are those teams so well-regarded? Because they have gaudy records built on the backs of kicking the tar out of teams that make DePaul look like Duke. If DePaul, the worst team in our league, were in the AAC, they would be the 6th best team.

And let's be honest...who has the AAC beaten? Louisville has beaten one top-50 Pomeroy team outside their league, #43 Southern Miss. Cincy beat #15 Pitt but their losses include our own Xavier. SMU's best non-con win is #77 Wyoming. Memphis beat #29 Oklahoma State back when that meant something. UConn beat #4 Florida, the best win they have. For the most part, the league as a whole hasn't been very impressive outside the conference, beating up bad teams. And in the conference, well, they also beat up bad teams. The only real wins they have is each other, which means...well, not a whole lot since we don't even know that they are that good in the first place.

I don't know what will happen come March, but I don't expect that to be a wildly successful league, and with Louisville leaving at the end of the year it isn't exactly trending upward for the American.