This game highlights

This game highlights what I believe and have been saying for last 10 or so games, the team is better offensively with Davante on the bench. I know most will disagree, but I believe spacing and attitude is much better without him there. Once again Otule has two or three possessions where he just seals an entire side of the lane and allows a drive. Whenever someone drives with Davante on the court he allows his man to slip by and defend because Davante is looking for the dump pass so he can score himself. Otule also allows much better offensive rebounding to occur because he is fighting for position and usually allows someone else to dive hard to the rim. As far as defense it isn't even a question as Davante has given up even trying to work. I believe going back to a 20-20 minute split will allow Davante to go harder in a shorter period of time and make the whole team better. I think his bad body language does hurt the freshman they should not see a supposed senior team leader pout and flail his arms like he does, a bad example for the whole team. I think it is no coincidence that the whole run back in this game occurred with him on the bench.

Great post. I agree with much of what you say. Buzz noted how important Otule was to the 2 H run.

I've certainly noticed the often mopey attitude of Gardner as many of us have. However, I never thought that Davante should get less minutes, especially given the offensive struggles that we go through so regularly. However tonight obviously showed that we can look good offensively without him, but how often can we depend on a Todd Mayo explosion like we saw tonight? Can others pick up the offensive slack with less Gardner and a poor Mayo performance?

It's an interesting angle (playing ox less) and I support it from an attitude/impression standpoint, but I'm conflicted bc I'm not sure I buy into us being a better offensive team with him on the bench.

Not to mention that when Davante isn't getting the ball, he will sooner go to the top of the key than fight for position. His three just before halftime was awful.

He also doesn't draw fouls like he used to, largely because the refs don't give him the benefit of the flop.

Interesting point O'Malley. Sealing the lane is one skill so many don't appreciate. Otule changed the game from a defensive standpoint altering shots and stopping the move to the hoop which allowed a few steals.

I like Davante, but I too think he is more effective with less minutes. He tends to conserve too much energy at times on the defensive end.

I'm sort of with WindyCity on this one. Theoretically agree with playing Otule more as he really does help spacing, but also wonder where the points will come from if Davante sits. Against higher octane offenses, it would be hard to sit Ox.

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Originally Posted by Goose85

Interesting point O'Malley. Sealing the lane is one skill so many don't appreciate. Otule changed the game from a defensive standpoint altering shots and stopping the move to the hoop which allowed a few steals.

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I commented to my buddy tonight that I wish someone tracked shots altered because CO was killing it in that regard. His presence down low made a big difference.

I cringed last night every time we pressed and DG was in the game. He is our last line of defense on the press???? OMG!

I don't know if Davante is frustrated or if he is simply moving on from MU a few months early, but he seems like he is playing for himself out there. He is taking some wild shots, fadeaway baseline 15 footers, unwarranted 3's and the like. Seems like he just wants his point and that is it.

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Originally Posted by IrwinFletcher

I don't know if Davante is frustrated or if he is simply moving on from MU a few months early, but he seems like he is playing for himself out there. He is taking some wild shots, fadeaway baseline 15 footers, unwarranted 3's and the like. Seems like he just wants his point and that is it.

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Totally agree. He's been driving me nuts all year long.

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Originally Posted by kneelb4zerg

Totally agree. He's been driving me nuts all year long.

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That Davante three pointer with 8 seconds left in the first half drove me nuts. Call a time out to set up a play and Davante decides to take the opportunity to launch a 3. It would have been ok with 2 seconds left in the half, but there was time to get a better look and not allow Butler time for one last shot.

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Originally Posted by Goose85

That Davante three pointer with 8 seconds left in the first half drove me nuts. Call a time out to set up a play and Davante decides to take the opportunity to launch a 3. It would have been ok with 2 seconds left in the half, but there was time to get a better look and not allow Butler time for one last shot.

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Raftery said he thought it was drawn up that way. I didn't see it for some reason, just the aftermath, but could that have been the case?

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

Raftery said he thought it was drawn up that way. I didn't see it for some reason, just the aftermath, but could that have been the case?

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When Butler called time out Davante was about as far away from Buzz as he could get. I would think the idea would be to take the last shot, and not set up Davante for a long 3 with that much time. Possible, but not sure Buzz would set up a play for a Davante 3.

How Chris and Davante are used really depends upon the opponent and the flow of the game. As for Davante's facial expressions and body language...well, that's Davante. I think everyone on the team and staff realizes that and they just ignore it. Don't think it has been or is a real negative in terms of team chemistry.

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

How Chris and Davante are used really depends upon the opponent and the flow of the game. As for Davante's facial expressions and body language...well, that's Davante. I think everyone on the team and staff realizes that and they just ignore it. Don't think it has been or is a real negative in terms of team chemistry.

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Bad body language and facial expressions are very easy to ignore when things are going well. Not so easy to do so in tough times. They become tiresome and annoying for everybody. Since we are just speculating and giving our personal opinions, I would side with the people who say that his teammates and coaches are probably getting a little sick of him.

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Originally Posted by Orlando

Bad body language and facial expressions are very easy to ignore when things are going well. Not so easy to do so in tough times. They become tiresome and annoying for everybody. Since we are just speculating and giving our personal opinions, I would side with the people who say that his teammates and coaches are probably getting a little sick of him.

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Watching games at the BC and seeing Davante shuffle to the bench, I really don't see any of that. I think they just ignore it. He is what he is and they are not going to change him with a month and a half left in his career. The real issue on this team is the lack of consistent and solid guard play on both ends of the court. Davante was the same in last year's BE Championship and Elite 8 run. Davante ain't the problem. Now, I do wish he would stop taking those threes.

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Originally Posted by WarriorOMalley82

This game highlights what I believe and have been saying for last 10 or so games, the team is better offensively with Davante on the bench.

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Completely unfair statement. Buzz changed the offense in the last 10 minutes of the game. As he indicated in his postgame show, MU played a style they haven't played all year. As a sidenote, it was refreshing to see. He went back to the system the used with the three amigos and with Cubby and Acker. In any event, Otule did a great job of sealing the lane and allowing Mayo (and Burton) to get penetration. The team finally got the movement they have been struggling to get with DW at point. Now, it is fair to ask if Gardner would have been as effective as Otule in this system? Maybe. We don't really know. He hasn't been asked to perform this way.

Since MU doesn't have a competent point on the offensive end, the motion seems to be a better fit for the talent. I think Johnson and Dawson would thrive in this kind of constant motion system. Mayo obviously looked good. So did Burton. Wilson looked comfortable too. Plus, the constant weave at the top of the key allows MU to hide DW on offense since the defense has to guard him. Granted, the offensive really doesn't suit Gardner, but there still would be opportunities for him. Gardner is a great offensive player with great hands, but his height is a limiting factor at times. Without any consistent outside shooters and the fact that defenses have simply stopped guarding DW, Gardner (and Taylor for that matter) has been getting triple teamed in the post. This movement will free the post players up for easier attempts.

Will MU continue to play this way? I don't know. But for the first time in a long time, it looked like we had some energy and hope. In the first 30 minutes, we were the worst MU team since KO's second season. I don't want to see that again.

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Originally Posted by MU88

Completely unfair statement. Buzz changed the offense in the last 10 minutes of the game. As he indicated in his postgame show, MU played a style they haven't played all year. As a sidenote, it was refreshing to see. He went back to the system the used with the three amigos and with Cubby and Acker. In any event, Otule did a great job of sealing the lane and allowing Mayo (and Burton) to get penetration. The team finally got the movement they have been struggling to get with DW at point. Now, it is fair to ask if Gardner would have been as effective as Otule in this system? Maybe. We don't really know. He hasn't been asked to perform this way.

Since MU doesn't have a competent point on the offensive end, the motion seems to be a better fit for the talent. I think Johnson and Dawson would thrive in this kind of constant motion system. Mayo obviously looked good. So did Burton. Wilson looked comfortable too. Plus, the constant weave at the top of the key allows MU to hide DW on offense since the defense has to guard him. Granted, the offensive really doesn't suit Gardner, but there still would be opportunities for him. Gardner is a great offensive player with great hands, but his height is a limiting factor at times. Without any consistent outside shooters and the fact that defenses have simply stopped guarding DW, Gardner (and Taylor for that matter) has been getting triple teamed in the post. This movement will free the post players up for easier attempts.

Will MU continue to play this way? I don't know. But for the first time in a long time, it looked like we had some energy and hope. In the first 30 minutes, we were the worst MU team since KO's second season. I don't want to see that again.

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By your own statement (that the motion offense was the most fluid play we've seen all season) aren't you agreeing with him?

we should play this system more + Davante doesn't work well in that system = we should play Davante less?

Not really. We don't really know if Gardner's talents will translate to the system. Otule is a bigger, less talented Barro. He can seal, but he is limited otherwise. This system could be great for Gardner if he can learn to seal the lane like Otule and take a less centric role on offense. He could get a lot of garbage buckets with his hands and offensive ability.

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Originally Posted by MU88

Not really. We don't really know if Gardner's talents will translate to the system. Otule is a bigger, less talented Barro. He can seal, but he is limited otherwise. This system could be great for Gardner if he can learn to seal the lane like Otule and take a less centric role on offense. He could get a lot of garbage buckets with his hands and offensive ability.

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I never bash any players here, but for you to say it is a "completely unfair statement" is ridiculous, it is my opinion and I can back it up to my satisfaction. Forgetting D completely for a moment If Otule played the 35+ minutes that Davante played in last 12 games I think it is safe to say that he would avg 8-9 pts a game(he is averaging 6 pts a game now in less than 15 minutes), Davante is averaging 14.6 so Chris must make up 5-6 pts elsewhere. I believe he will create scoring lanes that are not there now at least 3 times a game more than Davente that is 6 pts I believe he will keep offensive rebounds alive or keep other bigs occupied that will create at least 4 more possessions a game than Davante lets say we avg 3 pts on those possessions there is a total of 16-19 pts a game. I believe that will offset the pts Davante scores. So all this just on the offensive side of the ball, when you add in the defensive side I believe you can easily say another 5-8 pts difference. I believe a total difference somewhere 8-13 pts a game. Now I am not really advocating a 35- 5 split in minutes but I do believe a 24 min for CO and 16 min for DG will help the team and give more energy to Davante in the time he is out there.

Lazy Davante < Hard Working Chris for this team IMO.

Unfortunately, we haven't seen Hard Working Davante outside of a half against DePaul.

And to say Chris is a poor man's Barro is a joke. He's averaging more points on better FG % in less time than Barro.

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Originally Posted by IrwinFletcher

I don't know if Davante is frustrated or if he is simply moving on from MU a few months early, but he seems like he is playing for himself out there. He is taking some wild shots, fadeaway baseline 15 footers, unwarranted 3's and the like. Seems like he just wants his point and that is it.

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Does Devante have the greenlight to shoot whenever he wants? Couldn't Buzz put a stop to it if he wanted to? I thought that he has made rules in the past. e.g. no paint touches, no shot

Bleed,

Give me a break. You're pulling a Murff con.

First of all, as a junior Barro averaged 8.1 ppg and 6.9 rpg in 27.0 mpg. If you are talking only about Ooze's senior season, you are right statistically in that he averaged 5.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg in just under 20 mpg.

However, here is what you conveniently left out. Ooze's senior year Jerel averaged 14.9 ppg, DJ averaged 12.9 ppg, Lazar averaged 12.8 ppg, and Wesley averaged 11.3 ppg. That's four teammates who averaged in double figures. Ooze was Option #5 on every possession. He scored on dump offs and put backs.

When Derrick is on the floor, Chris is not Option #5, and Chris is not surrounded by four double-digit scorers, three of whom can create their own shot (Jerel, DJ, Wesley).

Chris's situation/role on this year's team bears no resemblance to Ooze's situation/role on that team, so trying to compare the two is silly.

interested in your take as to my analysis on how Otule on the court offensively MIGHT offset DG's points. I know it is most certainly not a scientific analysis, but I do believe it has some basis in fact. I appreciate your opinions and insight.

OMalley82,

Theoretically your observations sense, but it is really difficult to quantify. I would bet, however, that Buzz can give you the exact stats on how we do on offense when DG is in the game (points per possession, field goal percentage, etc.) and when CO is in the game. He could do the same in terms of defense.

There is, however, no question that someone like CO can contribute without the benefits showing up in his individual stats.

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Originally Posted by Phantom Warrior

OMalley82,

Theoretically your observations sense, but it is really difficult to quantify. I would bet, however, that Buzz can give you the exact stats on how we do on offense when DG is in the game (points per possession, field goal percentage, etc.) and when CO is in the game. He could do the same in terms of defense.

There is, however, no question that someone like CO can contribute without the benefits showing up in his individual stats.

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Yes, Buzz can give you those stats but Buzz will also tell you there is more to it that just head to head stats. The most important factor is who plays well with who. Wainwright touched on that a little last night when he said that Burton plays much better when he is opposite Davante as opposed to Chris. So in Buzz' world, its not just who has the stats, it is who is the best mix of five together? Sure, Davante is the leading scorer, but does he score as much when Jamil is in the game? Sure, Jake is the best outside shooter, but does he get the opportunities when Dawson is in the game? (Just using names for examples).

That is the biggest challenge that the staff faces, its not as easy as who are the best 5 players, its what is the best combination of five?

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Originally Posted by Jim Ganzer, "IWB"

Yes, Buzz can give you those stats but Buzz will also tell you there is more to it that just head to head stats. The most important factor is who plays well with who. Wainwright touched on that a little last night when he said that Burton plays much better when he is opposite Davante as opposed to Chris. So in Buzz' world, its not just who has the stats, it is who is the best mix of five together? Sure, Davante is the leading scorer, but does he score as much when Jamil is in the game? Sure, Jake is the best outside shooter, but does he get the opportunities when Dawson is in the game? (Just using names for examples).

That is the biggest challenge that the staff faces, its not as easy as who are the best 5 players, its what is the best combination of five?

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See, I like when Burton is paired with Otule as Chris can cover for Deonte's defensive weakness and allows for Deonte to be the frontcourt shot hunter. Davante and Steve play fairly well together, though I think Davante is best having Jamil at the 4 and both Mayo and Jake on the perimeter to open up the floor.

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Originally Posted by Phantom Warrior

Bleed,

Give me a break. You're pulling a Murff con.

First of all, as a junior Barro averaged 8.1 ppg and 6.9 rpg in 27.0 mpg. If you are talking only about Ooze's senior season, you are right statistically in that he averaged 5.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg in just under 20 mpg.

However, here is what you conveniently left out. Ooze's senior year Jerel averaged 14.9 ppg, DJ averaged 12.9 ppg, Lazar averaged 12.8 ppg, and Wesley averaged 11.3 ppg. That's four teammates who averaged in double figures. Ooze was Option #5 on every possession. He scored on dump offs and put backs.

When Derrick is on the floor, Chris is not Option #5, and Chris is not surrounded by four double-digit scorers, three of whom can create their own shot (Jerel, DJ, Wesley).

Chris's situation/role on this year's team bears no resemblance to Ooze's situation/role on that team, so trying to compare the two is silly.

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Honestly I don't care, just don't take him to be a poor man's Ooze.

One could argue that having 4 good scorers around him, he got better looks at the basket than a defense that could pack it in against a bad parimeter