Derrick, Part 3,000

IWB made an interesting point after the X game stating that Derrick performs his primary responsibility of not turning it over well. True. Fact is, we still turn the ball over a considerable amount when he is on the floor, which is largely overlooked by those defending DW's low turnover rate. While he doesn't turn the ball over directly, I believe indirectly, his presence and lack of offensive creation/playmaking/shooting talent leads to a good percentage of our overall turnovers. Lesser ball handlers are consistently forced to create on their own off the dribble into an oversaturated lane coupled with the constant double teams on everyone not named DW attacking the basket in one form or another. On top of this, I believe DW alone costs us 5-10 post points per game due to his man sagging into the paint on every possession.

I'm not saying some combination of John Dawson, Jake Thomas, or Todd Mayo manning the primary point guard responsibilities is a better option, however, I will say that I believe in a season where we can all acknowledge that staying with DW will likely take us to the NIT, what is there to lose at this point? Yes, we are spoiled. That said, Buzz owes it to the seniors and the fans to consistently put the best team on the floor. At the end of the day, I'm just afraid that we'll have to hear Buzz say at some point that this is the year that taught him lessons about "loyalty" to his guys. Derrick is not a high major point guard. Time to move on or drown in stubborness.

Oh goody. Another thread to bash Derrick. As if we did not have enough already. :mad:

Perhaps in the spirit of a good message board, instead of being an arrogant J/A, you could simply respond to the the points that were made. I realize that expectation may be a bit lofty for you, though.

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Originally Posted by AbovetheRim

IWB made an interesting point after the X game stating that Derrick performs his primary responsibility of not turning it over well. True. Fact is, we still turn the ball over a considerable amount when he is on the floor, which is largely overlooked by those defending DW's low turnover rate. While he doesn't turn the ball over directly, I believe indirectly, his presence and lack of offensive creation/playmaking/shooting talent leads to a good percentage of our overall turnovers.

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So now Derrick is to blame for the turnovers that other players make?

Good lord.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

So now Derrick is to blame for the turnovers that other players make?

Good lord.

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Did I say that? Please reread the paragraph you felt the need to highlight, look up the word "indirectly," and get back bud.

I read it. That's exactly what you said. Derrick's presence on the floor causes other people to turn the ball over. I think that's is a reach. A big one.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

I read it. That's exactly what you said. Derrick's presence on the floor causes other people to turn the ball over. I think that's is a reach. A big one.

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Indirectly, yes. After your review of the game film, please present your argument against this stance. I'll be ready with examples to support my point.

It's actually a fair point.

Sultan-do you believe the driving and passing lanes are more clogged by the guy playing a one man zone off of Dw?

If your answer is yes (which i presume it will be as anyone who's played bball knows this to be the case), than my next question is do you believe more traffic in passing and driving lanes leads to a higher probability of turnovers?

Once again I will presume your answer to be yes. Therefore, Dw's presence on the offensive end does also indirectly contribute to more team turnovers.

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Originally Posted by WindyCityGoldenEagle

It's actually a fair point.

Sultan-do you believe the driving and passing lanes are more clogged by the guy playing a one man zone off of Dw?

If your answer is yes (which i presume it will be as anyone who's played bball knows this to be the case), than my next question is do you believe more traffic in passing and driving lanes leads to a higher probability of turnovers?

Once again I will presume your answer to be yes. Therefore, Dw's presence on the offensive end does also indirectly contribute to more team turnovers.

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But is that what is happening? Is Derrick to blame for Otule's travels? Is he to blame for Juan's charge?

I have come to the conclusion that people don't really like Derrick as a player, and are going to find ways to blame him for things even when he has a good game.

Sultan refuses to acknowledge negative aspects of Marquette players' game. As someone who's attempt rationalizing with him, it's a waste of time

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

Sultan refuses to acknowledge negative aspects of Marquette players' game. As someone who's attempt rationalizing with him, it's a waste of time

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I thought Derrick had a good game, for him! Which unfortunately, is not good enough! No fault to him. The fault is on Buzz! KO said it best, we couldn't get the ball to Davante at the end of the game because no one guarded Dwill.

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Originally Posted by mufansince72

I thought Derrick had a good game, for him! Which unfortunately, is not good enough! No fault to him. The fault is on Buzz! KO said it best, we couldn't get the ball to Davante at the end of the game because no one guarded Dwill.

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That's not what KO said. What KO said was that they were doubling Davante everytime he touched the ball. That double team wasn't always off Derrick.

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

Sultan refuses to acknowledge negative aspects of Marquette players' game. As someone who's attempt rationalizing with him, it's a waste of time

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Perhaps you should learn to read. It would be helpful.

Buzz is obviously changing his use of Derrick to fit the situation offense vs. defense. Also, pulled him at the 23 second mark re inbounds against the press. Obviously DWs free throw shooting is apparent to Buzz. No knock on Derrick as Buzz needs to maximize DWs strengths vs. weaknesses. Same is true of Jake as Buzz substituted Juan for Jake on defense several times as he noted in post game comments.

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Originally Posted by AbovetheRim

Perhaps in the spirit of a good message board, instead of being an arrogant J/A, you could simply respond to the the points that were made. I realize that expectation may be a bit lofty for you, though.

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Speaking of J/A's, your initial post falls right in line with that. I just called it as I saw it. If you are offended that I thought you were a J/A, well, so be it, you were and are.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

That's not what KO said. What KO said was that they were doubling Davante everytime he touched the ball. That double team wasn't always off Derrick.

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He may not have said what '72 said at the end of the game, but he did say it directly attributed to DWill several times during the game. Starting in the first half.

EDIT: It should be mentioned that they played off Dawson the same way.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

That's not what KO said. What KO said was that they were doubling Davante everytime he touched the ball. That double team wasn't always off Derrick.

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He not only said it once, but he said it at least two other times in the game. It was obvious towards the end.

I personally was super pissed at Derrick when during our first possession, his guy sagged down so low that Chris was not able to find his way out of the lane in a timely fashion. Come on Derrick!!! Damn indirect turnovers! I wonder who Buzz has charting the indirect turnover stat on the bench. :confused:

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Originally Posted by MUMac

Speaking of J/A's, your initial post falls right in line with that. I just called it as I saw it. If you are offended that I thought you were a J/A, well, so be it, you were and are.

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You still haven't responded to the initial post in a meaninful manner and have attempted to hijack the thread as well. That seems to be a strength of yours. By my count, that makes 1 strength.

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Originally Posted by mufansince72

He not only said it once, but he said it at least two other times in the game. It was obvious towards the end.

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as it is to any one who watches this team for 5 minutes

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Originally Posted by AbovetheRim

Perhaps in the spirit of a good message board, instead of being an arrogant J/A, you could simply respond to the the points that were made. I realize that expectation may be a bit lofty for you, though.

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I think he did. And the point was you could have. Posted this in any of the other threads instead of starting yet another one.

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Originally Posted by pbiflyer

I think he did. And the point was you could have. Posted this in any of the other threads instead of starting yet another one.

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Ding, ding, ding, ding ... we have a winner. Sorry abovetherirm that comprehension missed you in school, that could have been your one strength. Yeah, this is snarky, but after the snark you have laid out there, it is deserved.

Jesus, can we have one thread that isn't dedicated to bashing Derrick? The thread title alone expresses the idiocy of belaboring this point to the level of obsession it has become. We get it. Half the board has dedicated their existence to trashing Derrick. Now shut the hell up. We get it. You hate him. Give it a freaking break. This record was broken a month ago.

In the end, Derrick is going to be our point guard, though Buzz will be doing things to minimize his weaknesses....using 3 guard sets, etc. Also telling that Buzz put Derrick on the bench yesterday with 23 seconds to go as MU was about to inbound the ball as Derrick was dribbling into SHU's press on prior inbound plays and was bricking FTs earlier in the game. Need to utilize DW's strengths while not letting opponents take advantage of his weaknesses. We move on.

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

In the end, Derrick is going to be our point guard, though Buzz will be doing things to minimize his weaknesses....using 3 guard sets, etc. Also telling that Buzz put Derrick on the bench yesterday with 23 seconds to go as MU was about to inbound the ball as Derrick was dribbling into SHU's press on prior inbound plays and was bricking FTs earlier in the game. Need to utilize DW's strengths while not letting opponents take advantage of his weaknesses. We move on.

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I think the main reason why Derrick was on the bench at that time was due to his poor free throw shooting, not his ball handling.

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Originally Posted by MUMac

I think the main reason why Derrick was on the bench at that time was due to his poor free throw shooting, not his ball handling.

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Probably so, but its telling that our PG is not on the floor with 23 seconds to go while inbounding the ball with 23 seconds to go and a 2 point lead ( I believe Buzz was out of time outs at the point as well ). Quite unusual, but Buzz is adapting...

Wow, just because a poster criticizes parts of Derrick's game does not mean the poster is "bashing" Derrick; nor does it mean that the poster "hates" Derrick. That assertion is, frankly, absurd.

The point of the original post is, at the very least, worthy of discussion.

Consider this: Buzz has said - and posters on this site have stated- that even if Jake is not hitting his shots - such as yesterday - he still helps the team because his presence improves the spacing on the floor, thereby making the offense potentially more efficient/effective. If one accepts that line of reasoning, then it stands to reason that something that hinders spacing on the floor inhibits or limits offensive effectiveness/efficiency.

It is obvious that defenses sag off Derrick and either take away the entry pass to the low post or cut off passing lanes and driving lanes by perimeter players. Consequently, an argument could be made that by creating inferior spacing, the offense becomes less efficient.

Now, the question raised by the original poster is whether or not that inferior spacing leads to an increased number of turnovers. That is an intriguing question. Has it led, for example, to a few of Davante's travels because the defender double teaming him can get there more quickly which leads to DG being more off balance or having to rush his move? Personally, I think at times that is the result.

Does the inferior spacing lead to a teammate not having quite the driving lane he might otherwise have, and, if so, has that helped create an occasional turnover that might not otherwise have occurred?

I don't know the answer because I did not watch the games specifically looking for any of those events. But I think the premise has some merit and is worth discussing.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the fact is that Derrick is leading the team in mpg, and his limitations do have ramifications. This fact is obvious to even outside observers, including national media, who repeatedly comment on them. Therefore, the topic does not, and will not, slink silently away.

I actually think this thread is interesting because it looks at a facet of the Derrick issue from a slightly new angle. How people answer the question being proposed will obviously be a direct consequence of whether they are, in essence, pro-Derrick-should-get-nearly-30 mpg or anti-Derrick-should-get-nearly-30 mpg. But that does not change the merit of the original premise or its worthiness as a topic of discussion.