Busting One Myth...

Time after time after losses to better teams this year we have been told that it's hard to measure what Jake and Derrick bring defensively as the main defense to why they play so much. Let's look at the stat sheet for some of the losses:

Semaj Christon went off for 28 (13 over his average)

Cullen Neal busted us for 24 (16 over avg)

Xavier Thames posted 29 (13 above)

Jahii Carson dropped 23 (5 over)

Numbers don't lie...

So you are going to cherry pick four performances to come to the conclusion that MU's guards can't play defense? Are you just going to ignore the games where they held defenders under their average?

Christian had 4 points in 7 minutes in the first half when Derrick went to the bench with the T(that counted for his 2nd foul)....he had 14 the rest of the half.

Those last 2 threes that Christian made were very well defended....sometimes a guy just makes a tough shot...doesn't mean the defender didn't do his job.

If you watched the New Mexico game you can't possibly blame Derrick or Jake for Neal going off......Buzz made the decision to double the post based on the scouting report(Neal had not been making his 3's up until that point in the season).....All of his shots were open looks.....he didn't beat either guy one on one as far as I can recall?

Thames and Carson are great players who had great games.....I believe Derrick sat for a good part of one of those games.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

So you are going to cherry pick four performances to come to the conclusion that MU's guards can't play defense? Are you just going to ignore the games where they held defenders under their average?

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I would not say "Bleed" is cherry-picking here.
Those are 4 of the seven losses. In the other 3, Craft shut Jake down totally while getting 10 points and 10 assists and generally keeping both Jake and Derrick back on their heels defensively. Against the BueJays, Manigat killed MU with 16 points and 6 rebounds ( double his season average ) helping to open things for CU's other trey shooters. Against Wisco, well......... Bottom line is that they have been below "average" against the better teams on the schedule.

Christon played 35 minutes last night. He scored 13 points in the 14 minutes he was on the floor with Dawson and 15 points in the 21 minutes he was on the floor with Derrick. In the first 16 minutes Derrick played with Christon on the floor, he only had 8 points. The back to back 3's were the killers.

The point here is that it's hard to blame Christon's night on Derrick. Christon got the ball rolling after Derrick went out in the 1st half.

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

I would not say "Bleed" is cherry-picking here.
Those are 4 of the seven losses. In the other 3, Craft shut Jake down totally while getting 10 points and 10 assists and generally keeping both Jake and Derrick back on their heels defensively. Against the BueJays, Manigat killed MU with 16 points and 6 rebounds ( double his season average ) helping to open things for CU's other trey shooters. Against Wisco, well......... Bottom line is that they have been below "average" against the better teams on the schedule.

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So what you are telling me is that they have played worse against better teams?

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

So what you are telling me is that they have played worse against better teams?

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Don't know that they played worse, but were certainly outplayed...?

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

Don't know that they played worse, but were certainly outplayed...?

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So the point of this is that we are outplayed by better teams? Isn't that rather obvious?

I don't get the point of this post. MU is clearly struggling this year, we all know that. Do we have to keep bashing the guards? It's not like Diener and DJO are sitting on the bench in their warmups...what's Buzz supposed to do?

I am stating this post to make the point that this backcourt is not strong offensively OR defensively

You do realize that these guys aren't isoed all game, right? Juan spent a lot of time on Carson. Thames too. Neal seemed to be a problem of the staff not adjusting to his shooting quick enough. Markedman covered this well in his post. You are not making a point, you are trying to make a point and failing. Your post is simply inaccurate, but for you to acknowledge that would go against the anti-Derrick agenda.

There are definitely way too many variables in a bball game to simply say bc the pg/2g on the opposing team has averaged a significantly higher amount of points than his average while playing, that our pg/2g is a bad defender. However, the numbers can't be completely ignored---i think it's a knock on us defensively not being able to minimize the impact of the other team's best player via better team defense while also highlighting that we may not have that great of a defensive back court.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

So what you are telling me is that they have played worse against better teams?

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I must admit that your debating tactic is entirely new to me. One states an opinion, you give your own, when proven wrong by facts, you simply state "ok, you're right. what's the point." The point is any. way. you. slice. it. we have the worst backcourt in our conference, by a WIDE margin.

Reap what you've sewn Brent.

The point trying to be won with the start of the thread was to prove that they were not as good as advertised defensively.

With him conceding the point, i next moved to say with them not having offensive (previously conceded) OR defensive talent, they are just bad.

Transitive property bro

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

I must admit that your debating tactic is entirely new to me. One states an opinion, you give your own, when proven wrong by facts, you simply state "ok, you're right. what's the point." The point is any. way. you. slice. it. we have the worst backcourt in our conference, by a WIDE margin.

Reap what you've sewn Brent.

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It is highly questionable whether or not the facts that you state are relevant. (Which has been addressed by others above.)

Furthermore, even if they are relevant, they don't do anything to prove your point that "we have the worst backcourt in our conference by a WIDE margin," because you have really no idea how all other BE backcourts would fare versus the same opponents MU has faced.

So please don't mention my debating tactics when the very data and assumptions you use are completely illogical...and I'm being generous using that term.

To not acknowledge Marquette's starting (and highest minutes per game) backcourt as the worst offensive backcourt in the BEast is imbecilic. Throw in the fact that opposing guards go off "against our rotation," and this backcourt is CUSA bad.

I only belabor the point because you and others in your contingency seem somewhat accepting of this form below mediocrity, while I believe that we had passed that point some time ago. But sorry, "every school has off years"...

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

To not acknowledge Marquette's starting (and highest minutes per game) backcourt as the worst offensive backcourt in the BEast is imbecilic. Throw in the fact that opposing guards go off "against our rotation," and this backcourt is CUSA bad.

I only belabor the point because you and others in your contingency seem somewhat accepting of this form below mediocrity, while I believe that we had passed that point some time ago. But sorry, "every school has off years"...

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Do I really have to spell this out for you? Did you not take some sort of logic based course at MU?

Cherry picking a few guards that have gone off against our backcourt doesn't *prove* anything. It certainly doesn't *prove* that MU has the worst backcourt in the BE. To *prove* that you have to...you know...come up with some relevant facts that actually compares our backcourt with the rest in the BE. It really wouldn't be that hard to do.

Now, if you do that, you may actually be right. I don't know.

And furthermore, I don't know what you mean by "accepting of this form below mediocrity." I really have no choice to accept it right? I can't get different players. I can't fire the coach. I'm not going to stop being a fan or loving my alma mater over basketball. So what exactly do you want me to do?

Ranting and raving on a message board doesn't really accomplish anything productive.

We've come to the point where there seem to only be two camps. Those that accept Derrick and look at the positives he brings and those that blame him for all the things that go wrong. Honestly, I don't know why anyone discusses it anymore.

The people that support and accept Derrick think that all the people that do nothing but piss and moan with impotence are idiots. The people that hate Derrick think those that accept him and don't complain about him are idiots. At the end of the day, the more we argue about it the more we think everyone else are idiots. I guess my only question is why we are still arguing it when all it does is sew discord among our fanbase?

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

It certainly doesn't *prove* that MU has the worst backcourt in the BE. To *prove* that you have to...you know...come up with some relevant facts that actually compares our backcourt with the rest in the BE.

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Humor me, where does Marquette's backcourt rank offensively, defensively and overall in the BEast? I sincerely think overall they are bottom 3 at best

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

Humor me, where does Marquette's backcourt rank offensively, defensively and overall in the BEast? I sincerely think overall they are bottom 3 at best

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You are the one making the assertion. Your job to prove it "bro."

If we say they are bad will you shut up?

I mean you are acting like a 2 year old.......you have made your point...you think they stink.....fine....they are going to play......are you going to whine about it all year to a bunch of people that can't do anything about it?

Derrick did an awesome job today guarding Sterling Gibbs.

Not so much so down the stretch.....

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Originally Posted by Markedman

If we say they are bad will you shut up?

I mean you are acting like a 2 year old.......you have made your point...you think they stink.....fine....they are going to play......are you going to whine about it all year to a bunch of people that can't do anything about it?

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Amen to that!!!

I thought KO said it best today when he said MU can't get the ball to Davante because they are not guarding Dwill!

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Originally Posted by mufansince72

I thought KO said it best today when he said MU can't get the ball to Davante because they are not guarding Dwill!

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They were doubling off of every perimeter player to double down low. Not just Derrick.

Derrick played well today.

A wins a win.

(Again) I am belaboring the point because Sultan refuses to give any critique of Derricks game. I have stated ad nauseam I think they are the worst offensive group by far. defensively they are much better. this means I would take any other backcourt in the league and we'd probably have a couple more wins for it.

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Originally Posted by bleedbluegold03

(Again) I am belaboring the point because Sultan refuses to give any critique of Derricks game. I have stated ad nauseam I think they are the worst offensive group by far. defensively they are much better. this means I would take any other backcourt in the league and we'd probably have a couple more wins for it.

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Excuse me? I refuse to give any critique of Derrick's game? I most certainly have. I think he is a fair point guard who is above average defensively. Can he be the point guard on a national championship team? I don't think so. Can he be the PG on a S16 caliber team? Sure...with the right pieces around him.

But I also think he is getting an inordinate share of the blame for Marquette's troubles this year. Every season seems to have a whipping boy, and this year's is Derrick. This team has a lot of problems....lack of a slasher who can get the ball into the lane...inconsistent outside shooting...giving up too many offensive rebounds...

But furthermore bitching about something over and over and over doesn't really mean anything unless you have some sort of solution.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

Excuse me? I refuse to give any critique of Derrick's game? I most certainly have. I think he is a fair point guard who is above average defensively. Can he be the point guard on a national championship team? I don't think so. Can he be the PG on a S16 caliber team? Sure...with the right pieces around him.

But I also think he is getting an inordinate share of the blame for Marquette's troubles this year. Every season seems to have a whipping boy, and this year's is Derrick. This team has a lot of problems....lack of a slasher who can get the ball into the lane...inconsistent outside shooting...giving up too many offensive rebounds...

But furthermore bitching about something over and over and over doesn't really mean anything unless you have some sort of solution.

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Where does our starting backcourt rank in the BEast?

I don't know.

I don't care.

Our backcourt is our backcourt. Nothing is going to change that.