Worst Scandal of All Time

Someone on Doddsy's Board posted the Penn State scandal is the worst of all time. I think the Baylor scandal is right there with Penn State. Patrick Dennehy was murdered in 2003 by his teammate who was ultimately found guilty and imprisoned. Turns out it had something to do with a drug deal. Baylor's coach, Dave Bliss, was found to have stashed Dennehy, a transfer walk-on from New Mexico and had paid his tuition (and that of another walk-on if I recall correctly). Then Bliss lied to the murder investigators to cover his own improprieties. My question is: which was worse? I think they are damn near equal.

Baylor was worse.

The thing about the Penn State situation that makes it so bad was the number of years the cover up took place.

Both are truly awful. However, Hizzoner still wonders why the NCAA got involved. Exactly what NCAA rule did Penn State break? Let the criminal and civil courts do their respective jobs.

Hizzoner: I would think that violating mandatory reporting requirements and involvement in a conspiracy to cover up and/or assist in the perpetration of child sexual assaults in order to preserve the reputation of the football program could be deemed a violation of NCAA rules which results in a recruiting advantage. I do not know what the jurisdictional reasons are but Penn State agreed to the sanctions in a consent decree.

Yes, who is the NCAA really punishing...? These acts were those of a criminal and a select few who covered up the situation so they would not look bad. Emmert talks about education and values...well, those were and are still in place at PSU. Get the court system after the administrators now that Sandusky and Paterno have gotten their due punishment. Had they done their jobs in the first place (umm...1998...? ), the situation would have been about a former employee who PSU referred to the police. A little taint but that would hardly have hurt the FB program and PSU at that point. Now it is all about FB due to their actions and PSU, its athletes, its students, its alumni, local businesses now are all impacted in terms of perception and $$.

Gato - I understand they consented. That said, it seems like a stretch to say that a coverup of a crime can be deemed a violation of NCAA rules. The point is not to defend Penn state's indefensible inactions, but rather to question why the NCAA needs to get involved. This is a criminal matter that originated, at least in part, in an athletic department. It is not an athletic rule violation.

Hizzoner: A quick check of the internets revealed there were violations of NCAA constitution and by-laws and that NCAA could have kicked Penn State out of the organization entirely. No specific NCAA rules violations occurred, just violations of the membership obligations of the NCAA. As a result, NCAA had jurisdiction.

I am among those who thinks the NCAA overstepped here.

What if Alvarez knew what Chidima was up to and didn't report it to authorities. Should they get the same penalty for covering up an assualt or worse because it involved current employees of the athletic dept? Could it be considered that MU covered up an alleged assault in the past as well? Should we get the same penalty, or worse because it involved athletes? Seems to me the Penn State penalty is all about covering up assaults.

So how do the rest of the four power conference elite teams view the NCAA's harsh Penn State penalty? Does this push them closer to a break from the NCAA?

SIGINIFICANT differences in the law in dealing with child victims of sexual assauls and adult sexual assault victims. Crime not to report a child sexual assaults by certain classes of individuals--applicable to Penn State. In the case of MU and Wisconsin, adults involved so no duty to report. In Chadima's case there was a history of bad behavior but not sexual assaults. In MU's case there was no such history.

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Originally Posted by TulsaWarrior

Baylor was worse.

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Both horrific, but I'd say PSU because in the Baylor case the cover up was after the murder whereas w/ PSU their cover-up started after some abuses but by not doing anything to stop Sandusky it lead to many, many more instances of abuse.

Bliss is a real creep though - trying to frame Dennehy as a drug dealer after the kid was murdered was unreal. No surprise that he got fired as the AD and B-Ball coach at that prep school (why would you hire him in the first place is beyond me) for forging a signature to get a kid in school. It's in his DNA.

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Originally Posted by CaribouJim

Both horrific, but I'd say PSU because in the Baylor case the cover up was after the murder whereas w/ PSU their cover-up started after some abuses but by not doing anything to stop Sandusky it lead to many, many more instances of abuse.

Bliss is a real creep though - trying to frame Dennehy as a drug dealer after the kid was murdered was unreal. No surprise that he got fired as the AD and B-Ball coach at that prep school (why would you hire him in the first place is beyond me) for forging a signature to get a kid in school. It's in his DNA.

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...and I would add that the multiple levels of the PSU administration - all the way to the top - that were involved in the cover-up and enabling made it all the more disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Gato78

SIGINIFICANT differences in the law in dealing with child victims of sexual assauls and adult sexual assault victims. Crime not to report a child sexual assaults by certain classes of individuals--applicable to Penn State. In the case of MU and Wisconsin, adults involved so no duty to report. In Chadima's case there was a history of bad behavior but not sexual assaults. In MU's case there was no such history.

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I'm talking about NCAA violations, not the law (the law will ensure those involved at PSU will get their punishment). The NCAA isn't the law, that is what our legal system is for. A player can break the law and not get NCAA penalitles, just like a player can accept cash which is legal and get NCAA penalties.

I thought MU got in trouble a year ago (Cottingham) for not reporting the alleged incident.

The NCAA came down on Penn State because of the lack of institutional control that allowed the cover-up. My guess would be any attempt at the cover-up of an assualt (child, woman, man, student) would signify lack of institutional controls and be dealt with harshly, or is it just because these were kids.

I tend to agree with the NCAA overstepping camp. Sandusky stopped being a NCAA and PSU football coach in 1999, in retrospect because of concerns about his behavior by Paterno and PSU adminstrators. I believe that relatives did report these concerns to the PA Child Welfare department and at one time the DA was involved. Yes, the actions of PSU to continue to enable his behavior and to cover up criminal acts is absolutely horrible, but it was criminal in its end. I just wish the focus was on the victims and justice being served vs. the chest thumping of the NCAA. At some point here Joe Pa has become more evil than Sandusky in the press, perhaps because of the image he built up (bigger they are, the harder they fall). Again, not absolving Paterno, et al but Sandusky was the root cause of the evil here that will linger well past these sanctions. This shouldn't have become about the NCAA and PSU football, but about the victims and criminal justice.

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Originally Posted by CaribouJim

...and I would add that the multiple levels of the PSU administration - all the way to the top - that were involved in the cover-up and enabling made it all the more disgusting.

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Exactly. This was an institutional cover-up that reached up to the President of the University. And this cover-up enabled a pedophile to engage with more victims with the football program's support. (use of facilities...taking victims to away football games on team planes...) Compare this to the UW situation where the guy was fired within days and a report issued within a few weeks.

And really, the NCAA overstepping its bounds? The NCAA is an institution of which Penn State is a voluntary member. They are perfectly able to bypass whatever process they have established and are not bound by due process. Furthermore, since Penn State agrees with the penalties, they seem perfectly comfortable with the NCAA's actions.

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Originally Posted by BLT

I tend to agree with the NCAA overstepping camp. Sandusky stopped being a NCAA and PSU football coach in 1999, in retrospect because of concerns about his behavior by Paterno and PSU adminstrators. I believe that relatives did report these concerns to the PA Child Welfare department and at one time the DA was involved. Yes, the actions of PSU to continue to enable his behavior and to cover up criminal acts is absolutely horrible, but it was criminal in its end. I just wish the focus was on the victims and justice being served vs. the chest thumping of the NCAA. At some point here Joe Pa has become more evil than Sandusky in the press, perhaps because of the image he built up (bigger they are, the harder they fall). Again, not absolving Paterno, et al but Sandusky was the root cause of the evil here that will linger well past these sanctions. This shouldn't have become about the NCAA and PSU football, but about the victims and criminal justice.

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It is rightly about both and it can move forward on both avenues without them taking away from one another.

1998: Paterno knows about Sandusky allegations of child sexual abuse.
1999: Sandusky allowed to retire from Penn State as a result of allegations with full access to all Penn State athletics facilities. Retired as a hero rather than a pervert.
2001: McQuery observes sexual assault. Reported to his father and then Paterno. Paterno participates in the decsion making process to not report the incident. In addition, Sandusky's right to use Penn State's athletics facilities remains unchecked. No one at Penn State, including Paterno, even bothers to figure out the identity of the child victim to see if assistance could be rendered.
2011: Paterno testifies before grand jury invoking the Sargeant Shultz defense. He testified he was "...afraid to do something that might jeopardize university procedure". Curley and Schultz, through counsel, claim not reporting the 2001 incident was "the humane thing to do".
2012: Louis Freeh report criticizes Paterno, Spanier, Schultz and Curley as "the most powerful leaders of the University....repeatedly concealed critical facts related to Sandusky's child abuse from the authorities, the Board of Trustees and the public at large."

How can anyone defend JoPa or the University vis-a-vis the NCAA with that set of facts and findings, all adopted by the University?

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Originally Posted by Gato78

How can anyone defend JoPa or the University vis-a-vis the NCAA with that set of facts and findings, all adopted by the University?

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Now counselor, neither PSU nor JoPa have been defended here. Most seem to take the postiion that it is not the place of an athletic association to interject themselves into a criminal and (likely) civil matter.

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Originally Posted by MayorBeluga

Now counselor, neither PSU nor JoPa have been defended here. Most seem to take the postiion that it is not the place of an athletic association to interject themselves into a criminal and (likely) civil matter.

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Yep, the University and its extended family are being punished for the actions of a select group of mis-guided individuals who should have done the right thing in the first place when they first knew of Sandusky's perverse actions. Having the NCAA punishing everyone else makes no sense. The school is going to be hit hard in the pocketbook and will be badly perceived by the masses beyond PSU and its extended family, who had zip to do with anything. This should be settled in the courts.

First of all, the NCAA isn't "interjecting" themselves into a criminal or civil matter.

Second, the NCAA has complete authority to act because it is an athletics related matter. They can do so on a parallel track.

I admit that this whole situation is disturbing, bothersome and I have conflicting thoughts.

First, though, Paterno is not able to defend himself. We have heard snippets of what he said, did, did not do or did not say. All second or third hand. He is an easy target to dump on, as he is no longer with us and knew he would not be with us much longer last fall. I am not defending him, but I would like to have more facts, but those went to the grave.

I am with the group that believes the NCAA overreached. Let's face it, Penn State was an easy target for the NCAA, due in large part to the kind of act and the length of time from the act to the trial. Add to that, two high ranking individuals have likely perjered themselves. Unfortunately, those people were all terminated when the facts became known. No one is involved with the University that created this crap storm. The one's that are paying the price had nothing to do with this.

Now, I know the argument will be that that is always the case. No, it is not. Most times, the President/AD remain in place while the coach is terminated. Thus, institutional control makes more sense to me - they lost it, and that is the punishment.

I am not looking to get into a long debate over this. It is one of those emotional issues that really no one's mind will ever be changed - including my own. I just wish the NCAA had the balls to enforce some of the blatant violations against the blue bloods that happen now. They do not and I really feel this was an overreach in a "feel good" kind of way by the NCAA.

May 1998: People/organizations aware of allegations concerning Sandusky, as of this date: Penn State University Police, State College Police Department, Centre County Office of the District Attorney, Second Mile attorney, Penn State attorney, Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare.
http://deadspin.com/5859823/a-compre...-abuse-scandal

As a manager, if an employee comes to me with an harassment claim, we are told to pass it along and let the specialists deal with it--to stay out of it to protect confidentiality to avoid bias of an untrained self-apponted specialist. They absoluletly do NOT want me interjecting myself into an investigation by seeking out a victim or witness or trying to problem solve it. They want to independently investigate the incident in confidence. There is/was a lot of blame to pass around...but the PSU administrators and Joe Pa's big mistake was interjecting themselves into a solution that should have been handled by the criminal and social welfare authorities...who couldn't seem to find enough to bring charges over a long period of time. Sad all the way around for the victims of the failures of many.

Again, not making excuses for any one...just think the NCAA's interjection into a criminal matter is an over reach...although I get it could be justified to some degree.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

First of all, the NCAA isn't "interjecting" themselves into a criminal or civil matter.

Second, the NCAA has complete authority to act because it is an athletics related matter. They can do so on a parallel track.

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It only became an athletics matter indirectly because of those misguided administrators who thought they were "protecting" PSU and its FB program from perceived taint. If they had exercised proper judgement, it would have been about Sandusky with some taint that would have blown over quickly. In the meantime, over the years, what have PSU athletics done to be punished (other than the continuing saga of Paterno and the admins )....? Zip..nada...

Not defending JoePa or Penn State at all, as the Mayor pointed out.
I'm not sure why addressing the NCAA penalty against Penn State as too harsh comes accross as some sort of defense of JoePa or Penn State?

Those in charge are being punished appropriately. Sandusky - life in prison, JoePa - reputation ruined and will forever be remembered as the guy that could have stopped the monster but didn't, other PSU autorities involved - all will also likely see prison terms and have civil actions brought against them, the University / athletic department will lose far more than $100 million because of this cover-up. JoePa will get the worst of this as everyone will now point the finger at him (maybe justified) because he is dead and can't defend himself.

Ok, the bad guys are getting what they deserve (again, not defending them - they deserve what they are getting).

Why the need for the NCAA to give them what is probably worse than the death penalty? These sanctions will hurt every athletic program at PSU as the financial penalties will result in cuts to all PSU sports. The NCAA has now determined that on top of issuing penalties, they can fine schools significant amounts of money.

I'm sure PSU agreed with the NCAA sanctions as they had little time to react, and the public outcry was to ban football.

Because of a few, the reputation of PSU, not just football but the entire university as a whole is now garbage. Can you imagine the added reputational hit if PSU wanted to fight the NCAA on the penalties? They had to accept whatever was levied. Heck, I suggest the NCAA was too harsh and I'm accused of defending the actions of JoePa / Sandusky and the rest involved.

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

It only became an athletics matter indirectly because of those misguided administrators who thought they were "protecting" PSU and its FB program from perceived taint. If they had exercised proper judgement, it would have been about Sandusky with some taint that would have blown over quickly. In the meantime, over the years, what have PSU athletics done to be punished (other than the continuing saga of Paterno and the admins )....? Zip..nada...

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Isn't that enough????

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

Isn't that enough????

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Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. there is far too much collateral damage here. In the meastime, quality FB programs like USC are drooling over PSU castoffs...:mad:

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Originally Posted by Nukem2

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. there is far too much collateral damage here. In the meastime, quality FB programs like USC are drooling over PSU castoffs...:mad:

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Yep, and that was part of the basis of my comment. The NCAA acted big time here because they could and felt it would look good. Yet, all the other crap get's a blind eye.

Well, this will be my last post on this, but I have very little outrage over USC boosters paying student athletes. I have a great deal of outrage over organizational cover ups of pedophiles.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

Well, this will be my last post on this, but I have very little outrage over USC boosters paying student athletes. I have a great deal of outrage over organizational cover ups of pedophiles.

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No one disagrees with your outrage. But, please, deal with the guilty parties.

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Originally Posted by TheSultan

Well, this will be my last post on this, but I have very little outrage over USC boosters paying student athletes. I have a great deal of outrage over organizational cover ups of pedophiles.

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Who said anything about comparative emotions? Of course the outrage for the situation of PSU is worse than USC. You will note, the police are not involved in the USC situation, as that is better addressed by the NCAA. Just as those commenting against the NCAA's handling is that the PSU situation is best handled through the police/courts and not the NCAA. It has NOTHING to do with moral outrage at all.

Again, it can be dealt with in the courts AND by the NCAA. There is nothing saying that both can't handle it.

However, the issue is clearly relevant to the athletic program. You have an institutional cover up of serious crimes of a former assistant football coach by the football coach, the athletic director and the president of the university. If you can't punish the athletic program of the institution for something like that, the NCAA is a bigger joke than it is even made out to be.

And the "guilty party" from the NCAA point of view is the institution...not just the individual people. It was a complete organizational breakdown. Part of what the NCAA is doing is making sure that the athletic department is operating correctly in the future - and that is certainly relevant to its authority. It's like saying you can't fine a corporation for something they did wrong 20 years ago because the management and shareholders changed. It doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Goose85

Why the need for the NCAA to give them what is probably worse than the death penalty? These sanctions will hurt every athletic program at PSU as the financial penalties will result in cuts to all PSU sports. The NCAA has now determined that on top of issuing penalties, they can fine schools significant amounts of money.

I'm sure PSU agreed with the NCAA sanctions as they had little time to react, and the public outcry was to ban football.

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Why the need? Because this isn't just about the guilty parties. It's also about preventing this in the future. This sends a message not just to the guilty parties, but also anyone who had suspicions and did nothing. The wealthy boosters, the athletes both past and present that may have known or suspected what Sandusky was up to, the lesser coaches and staff members that had heard the rumblings, and those at other universities where something like this might be happening. There needed to be a bold statement that said if this is allowed, we will crush your program, because for all those aforementioned people that had knowledge or suspicions but won't be punished, they also have to know that there is a consequence for those actions.

Do innocents get hurt? Sure, a bit. Is this damning to the athletes that are allowed to transfer? Not much, they can still compete immediately. Is losing wins over the past decade really going to tarnish the reputations of the athletes that were there at the time? I don't think so. Is there collateral damage? Sure, but there's always some collateral damage. But that collateral damage is exactly what should prevent this from happening again either at PSU or somewhere else.

As far as the PSU reaction to the sanctions...this morning it came out that the initial NCAA plan was a four-year death penalty. I imagine this is far more appealing to all involved, though why the NCAA would allow PSU to pick their punishment is beyond me. If the plan was a four-year death penalty, then I see no reason they shouldn't simply impose that plan.

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Originally Posted by brewcity77

Why the need? Because this isn't just about the guilty parties. It's also about preventing this in the future. This sends a message not just to the guilty parties, but also anyone who had suspicions and did nothing. The wealthy boosters, the athletes both past and present that may have known or suspected what Sandusky was up to, the lesser coaches and staff members that had heard the rumblings, and those at other universities where something like this might be happening. There needed to be a bold statement that said if this is allowed, we will crush your program, because for all those aforementioned people that had knowledge or suspicions but won't be punished, they also have to know that there is a consequence for those actions.

Do innocents get hurt? Sure, a bit. Is this damning to the athletes that are allowed to transfer? Not much, they can still compete immediately. Is losing wins over the past decade really going to tarnish the reputations of the athletes that were there at the time? I don't think so. Is there collateral damage? Sure, but there's always some collateral damage. But that collateral damage is exactly what should prevent this from happening again either at PSU or somewhere else.

As far as the PSU reaction to the sanctions...this morning it came out that the initial NCAA plan was a four-year death penalty. I imagine this is far more appealing to all involved, though why the NCAA would allow PSU to pick their punishment is beyond me. If the plan was a four-year death penalty, then I see no reason they shouldn't simply impose that plan.

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You don't think jail time, scandal and loss of job/image doesn't send a message? So, the NCAA's responsibility is to send a message here - but when it is something specific they are supposed to police, they ignore?

If it was institutional and to send a message - why is this limited to football? Really, the issue is with the university - that is what Sultan and others have said. If that is the issue, then all sports should be implicated, not just football.

As for the student athlete's ability to transfer, yeah right. That is a real option for most of these athletes. You do realize that most camps start in a couple of weeks. A lot of time to look into a transfer. Yeh, they are not impacted much at all. :rolleyes:

As I said, I will not change anyone's mind, nor they mine, but frankly this comment really seemed oddly placed. Bizarre to me.

That will be my last comment on this matter, as I said - no one's mind will be changed by comments on this board.

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Originally Posted by brewcity77

...As far as the PSU reaction to the sanctions...this morning it came out that the initial NCAA plan was a four-year death penalty. I imagine this is far more appealing to all involved, though why the NCAA would allow PSU to pick their punishment is beyond me. If the plan was a four-year death penalty, then I see no reason they shouldn't simply impose that plan.

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Normally this type of process takes a year or more. The NCAA conducts an extensive review. The NCAA presents its findings to the school. The school gets a certain amount of time to review the results of the findings, and then responds to the NCAA. The NCAA then reviews the schools response and decides on a final penalty. This process often takes a very long time, which is why those involved are often gone when penalties are finally imposed.

In this case (due to the nature of the events) it was in everyones best interest to just resolve it quickly. The NCAA leveraged heavily on the Freeh report. PSU didn't want to have to go back to the NCAA and fight sanctions as they would then be perceived as viewing football and their athletic programs as more important. Best case is for all to settle on violations quickly and be done.

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Originally Posted by MUMac

You don't think jail time, scandal and loss of job/image doesn't send a message? So, the NCAA's responsibility is to send a message here - but when it is something specific they are supposed to police, they ignore?

If it was institutional and to send a message - why is this limited to football? Really, the issue is with the university - that is what Sultan and others have said. If that is the issue, then all sports should be implicated, not just football.

As for the student athlete's ability to transfer, yeah right. That is a real option for most of these athletes. You do realize that most camps start in a couple of weeks. A lot of time to look into a transfer. Yeh, they are not impacted much at all. :rolleyes:

As I said, I will not change anyone's mind, nor they mine, but frankly this comment really seemed oddly placed. Bizarre to me.

That will be my last comment on this matter, as I said - no one's mind will be changed by comments on this board.

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No, I don't think that jail time, scandal, and loss of image sends the message they want to send. Not to the boosters, not to the unaffected but knowledgeable coaches. I agree it shouldn't be limited to football. Mainly because I have no doubt this knowledge went beyond the football staff. Looking back, I still don't think it's coincidence that Ed DeChellis left when he did, a move that seemed crazy at the time. And if these SAs weren't looking into transfers already over the past year, they have themselves to blame. And I have no doubt that rival coaches have been sniffing around PSU for awhile, expecting something like this. Maybe they won't all be able to transfer into an Alabama or Oregon, but do you really think the average PSU player can't quickly fit in at a non-BCS level school? I might just have a higher estimation of PSU's players, but I have a feeling they'd manage okay.