unclejohn
02-13-2014, 03:51 AM
It was discussed on the show tonight how good the current Big East is, and how good it will be in the future. I think we all know that it is not as good as it was last year. Zach made the argument that top to bottom, it is stronger than the old Big East. I disagreed, but not that strongly. Upon further consideration, I disagree much more. Looking at the rankings and the records, the drop-off has not been quite as having eight classic Corvettes fall into a thirty-foot sinkhole, but it is more than stepping off a curb. How about a fall from a second story window that might or might not break your ankle?
Here's what we lost or left behind: Syracuse, currently ranked #1 in the country, and coming off a Final Four. Louisville, ranked 8-13, and the defending national champion. Cincinnati, ranked 10-11 and leading the American. Pitt, ranked 23-25. UConn, ranked right around Pitt, bouncing back from a disappointing season, and apparently tournament bound. Notre Dame has been nothing special this year, and as usual, Rutgers and South Florida suck.
Here's what we picked up. #17-18 Creighton. Two other guys. Despite an influx of mediocre teams and the fact that it is going to take a hit next year, the American is probably a better conference this year. Sure, they have added some dogs, but they have also added Memphis and SMU, which are currently ranked. Temple has been terrible, but historically has been pretty good. And even USF made the tournament in the last year or two. They will lose Louisville, but they will also lose Rutgers, and will pick up Tulsa, which has historically been pretty good.
I think in the future, the Big East has a good chance to be the stronger conference, but right now, it is no sure thing. One of the points that Zach made was that the teams are much closer together in the current Big East than in the previous configuration. Usually, in the eight years we were members, there were a number of great teams, some pretty good ones, and a few bottom-feeders. Here is the problem. We brought most of the bottom-feeders with us. DePaul is the most obvious, but most years, the teams that would fight it out with DePaul for the chance to miss the Big East tournament included Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall. I am not all doom and gloom here. A bunch of the teams in the current BE are better than their record, including Marquette. And aside from DePaul, none of them are truly Rutgers- or USF-quality bad. Zach had a point that the top and the bottom of the conference are closer than they used to be. Even DePaul was not terrible until Melvin left. But the conference is nowhere near as good as it used to be.
Teams are going to go up and down. We are proving it this year. In the time we were in the Big East, Georgetown went to the NIT a time or two, then went to the Final Four. There were a couple seasons when UConn was a team we expected to beat, one year in particular when they were supposed to be pretty good but weren't, and a couple others when they were one of the best in the country for most of the year or won the national championship. Louisville was really good, except for one year when they were really bad. But the sheer number of great teams in the conference meant that there were always going to be a bunch of them ranked, and usually one or two in the top five. The teams that have come in are quality teams. They might have fared all right in the former Big East. I think in most seasons, Creighton would have given the big boys a run for their money. I am not sure about Xavier, but I know one year they were a three seed. I think Butler would have had a tougher time, even in the years they made the championship game. The first year they did that, they actually finished behind UWM in the Horizon League.
In the future, the conference is going to have to step it up. Of course, every year a couple teams are going to lose a bunch more conference games than they win. Somebody is going to have a disappointing season. That is why I am not too concerned that we and Georgetown are choosing to have ours this year. We have both been consistently good. But for the conference to be considered among the best, the overall quality has to improve. Seton Hall and St. John's have to pick it up a notch, and actually be as good as their talent suggests they can be. Providence and Xavier have to improve. It is hard to judge Butler due to all the changes they have gone through in recent years. And DePaul.... well, is DePaul. I think the administrators of the various universities know that, and they are willing to pour some resources in to make it happen. But it is not automatic. Several of these teams have had a good year or two, followed by five or six or, in Seton Hall's case, eight bad ones. It is no easy thing.
That is why the list of expansion candidate is not long. I know lots of people like ten teams. I do too, but I think money talks, and there is going to be pressure to expand. Like I said on the show tonight, I think the likely candidates are Saint Louis and..... The problem is, there is no obvious candidate for the and.... It would probably be someone from the A-10. But all the likely candidates have drawbacks. VCU is huge and public. I think UMass is not even on the radar, because of football. La Salle, St. Joes, and Richmond are all private and have tradition and have had some success, though perhaps not on the level the conference would like, and one wonders if Villanova wants to share a market with the first two or Georgetown with the third. Dayton has been discussed at length, and I will not mention it further, lest I give someone a coronary. Outside of the A-10, I do not see any really obvious candidates. It seems what would be required is to find a private school with an established team, lots of money, and a credible commitment to step it up, sort of like what Loyola has done in getting into the MVC. But that means taking a team that is not all that great and hoping the bringing them into the conference is enough to improve them. Sometimes that works. It worked for UConn in the original formation of the Big East, but it took a while. Sometimes it doesn't. Penn State has been in the Big Ten for years, and still isn't any better than mediocre. And I am convinced that Rutgers is going to suck wherever they play.
Thoughts? How to see to it that the conference flourishes? Who to invite if/when the conference expands?
Here's what we lost or left behind: Syracuse, currently ranked #1 in the country, and coming off a Final Four. Louisville, ranked 8-13, and the defending national champion. Cincinnati, ranked 10-11 and leading the American. Pitt, ranked 23-25. UConn, ranked right around Pitt, bouncing back from a disappointing season, and apparently tournament bound. Notre Dame has been nothing special this year, and as usual, Rutgers and South Florida suck.
Here's what we picked up. #17-18 Creighton. Two other guys. Despite an influx of mediocre teams and the fact that it is going to take a hit next year, the American is probably a better conference this year. Sure, they have added some dogs, but they have also added Memphis and SMU, which are currently ranked. Temple has been terrible, but historically has been pretty good. And even USF made the tournament in the last year or two. They will lose Louisville, but they will also lose Rutgers, and will pick up Tulsa, which has historically been pretty good.
I think in the future, the Big East has a good chance to be the stronger conference, but right now, it is no sure thing. One of the points that Zach made was that the teams are much closer together in the current Big East than in the previous configuration. Usually, in the eight years we were members, there were a number of great teams, some pretty good ones, and a few bottom-feeders. Here is the problem. We brought most of the bottom-feeders with us. DePaul is the most obvious, but most years, the teams that would fight it out with DePaul for the chance to miss the Big East tournament included Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall. I am not all doom and gloom here. A bunch of the teams in the current BE are better than their record, including Marquette. And aside from DePaul, none of them are truly Rutgers- or USF-quality bad. Zach had a point that the top and the bottom of the conference are closer than they used to be. Even DePaul was not terrible until Melvin left. But the conference is nowhere near as good as it used to be.
Teams are going to go up and down. We are proving it this year. In the time we were in the Big East, Georgetown went to the NIT a time or two, then went to the Final Four. There were a couple seasons when UConn was a team we expected to beat, one year in particular when they were supposed to be pretty good but weren't, and a couple others when they were one of the best in the country for most of the year or won the national championship. Louisville was really good, except for one year when they were really bad. But the sheer number of great teams in the conference meant that there were always going to be a bunch of them ranked, and usually one or two in the top five. The teams that have come in are quality teams. They might have fared all right in the former Big East. I think in most seasons, Creighton would have given the big boys a run for their money. I am not sure about Xavier, but I know one year they were a three seed. I think Butler would have had a tougher time, even in the years they made the championship game. The first year they did that, they actually finished behind UWM in the Horizon League.
In the future, the conference is going to have to step it up. Of course, every year a couple teams are going to lose a bunch more conference games than they win. Somebody is going to have a disappointing season. That is why I am not too concerned that we and Georgetown are choosing to have ours this year. We have both been consistently good. But for the conference to be considered among the best, the overall quality has to improve. Seton Hall and St. John's have to pick it up a notch, and actually be as good as their talent suggests they can be. Providence and Xavier have to improve. It is hard to judge Butler due to all the changes they have gone through in recent years. And DePaul.... well, is DePaul. I think the administrators of the various universities know that, and they are willing to pour some resources in to make it happen. But it is not automatic. Several of these teams have had a good year or two, followed by five or six or, in Seton Hall's case, eight bad ones. It is no easy thing.
That is why the list of expansion candidate is not long. I know lots of people like ten teams. I do too, but I think money talks, and there is going to be pressure to expand. Like I said on the show tonight, I think the likely candidates are Saint Louis and..... The problem is, there is no obvious candidate for the and.... It would probably be someone from the A-10. But all the likely candidates have drawbacks. VCU is huge and public. I think UMass is not even on the radar, because of football. La Salle, St. Joes, and Richmond are all private and have tradition and have had some success, though perhaps not on the level the conference would like, and one wonders if Villanova wants to share a market with the first two or Georgetown with the third. Dayton has been discussed at length, and I will not mention it further, lest I give someone a coronary. Outside of the A-10, I do not see any really obvious candidates. It seems what would be required is to find a private school with an established team, lots of money, and a credible commitment to step it up, sort of like what Loyola has done in getting into the MVC. But that means taking a team that is not all that great and hoping the bringing them into the conference is enough to improve them. Sometimes that works. It worked for UConn in the original formation of the Big East, but it took a while. Sometimes it doesn't. Penn State has been in the Big Ten for years, and still isn't any better than mediocre. And I am convinced that Rutgers is going to suck wherever they play.
Thoughts? How to see to it that the conference flourishes? Who to invite if/when the conference expands?